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LOST: Kate Does What She Always Does in "What Kate Does"

Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:35 PM EST
By Steve Watts

Live Poll

What did you think of tonight's episode?

View Results
  • 82928
    Fantastic
    17%
  • 82929
    Pretty good
    52%
  • 82930
    Mediocre
    27%
  • 82931
    Terrible
    5%

VoteTotal Votes: 248

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We get a glimpse of Kate's connection with Claire and Aaron even beyond the flight of 815, as the men at the Temple take desperate measures to stave off infiltration from the inside.

ABC Preview:

Kate finds herself on the run, while Jack is tasked with something that could endanger a friend's life.

Note: "Lost in the Vines" is made for discussion of the series "Lost" on ABC. As such, here be spoilers!We talk frankly about the events of the night, speculate about future events, and so on. Read no further if you don't want spoilers.

The Big Reveal: Sayid, and Claire before him, has been corrupted by a "darkness" that is destined to claim him.

Summary

The translator (Lennon) walks quickly through the Temple, running to the leader (Dogen). He tells Dogen that Sayid is alive. Meanwhile, Hurley gives Sayid a hug and Jack tells Miles to get some water for him. Sayid says he's feeling light-headed, and then asks what happened to him. Jack tells him that he died. Kate, standing far away, asks how it's possible. Sawyer sarcastically tells her that as a torturer who shoots kids he deserves another go-round. Sawyer tells her about the guards in the Temple, and suggests that he might run.

Kate runs into the cab and holds a gun to make the cabbie leave quickly. Claire asks to stop the cab and Kate shouts at her to be quiet. The cabbie brakes for Artz, and while they're stopped Kate sees Jack on the phone in the distance. Claire tries to run, but Kate stops her and forces the cabbie to keep driving. He stops at a light, then runs out of the cab. Kate takes over the car and starts driving it herself, demanding Claire's purse. Claire asks for her suitcase, but Kate tells her she can't have it and tells her to get out. Claire leaves and Kate keeps driving.

Jin and Jack help Sayid outside. He asks who the people are, and Hurley tells him it's the Others, and they conned them again. He says he thinks they're trying to protect them. Miles jokes that Hurley is the leader now. Jack notices that Sayid's wound has almost completely healed, and Sayid thanks Jack for saving his life.

Dogen comes out and observes, and Lennon asks Sayid to come inside with them. Jack says he's coming too, but Lennon says they need to talk to him alone for a few questions. Jack says they have questions too, like who they are and why they're being held. Dogen speaks again, and Lennon says after they've talked to Sayid they'll tell him all he wants to know. Jack confronts them, and a guard steps forward leading to a fight. Sawyer fires two shots into the air and points his gun at Lennon. Lennon says they won't hurt his friend, and Sawyer says Jack is not his friend, and he's getting out of here. Kate tries to stop him. Dogen says he has to stay, but Sawyer says, no he doesn't. He leaves, telling Kate not to come after him.

----------------

The Temple men carry Sayid away. A guard (Aldo) comes out with a gun and tells everyone to calm down. Lennon asks where Sawyer went, and Jack says he doesn't know. Kate says she can track him and bring him back. Jack asks if she wants to go alone, and Jin volunteers to join her. Lennon says it's important that he get back here safely. Kate says she can be very convincing.

Kate pulls her cab into a lonely auto shop. She points a gun at the mechanic and asks where his tire hammer is. He says it'll cut off her wrist, what she needs is a punch press and she can't use it herself. She asks if he's volunteering, and he says they got off on the wrong foot. Kate offers him 200 dollars.

He removes the cuffs and asks what the cuffs were for. She says she's wanted for murder, but he just laughs it off. She asks for a bathroom to change, and he tells her to make it quick. She opens up Claire's suitcasee, finding a picture of her pregnant belly. She sorts through the baby items and finds a stuffed doll.

Aldo tells Kate that she'd better not slow them down. She counters that they'd better not slow her down. Jack offers to go with her, but she says Sawyer would kill him. She says she'll take care of James, if he takes care of Sayid, and he agrees. Jack tells her to be careful.

Dogen pours some powder on his hand as Sayid is strapped down to a table. He blows it over Sayid's torso, and then attaches some wires to his chest and stomach. Sayid asks what he wants, and Dogen turns a crank and flips a switch. An electronic hum comes from the machine, and then he turns it on. Sayid screams and Dogen stops the machine. Sayid asks why Dogen is doing this. Dogen takes a hot metal poker out of a fire and sticks it on Sayid's chest for a few moments. He gives a command to his men, and Lennon says he's sorry they had to put him through that. He's sorry, he says, it was a test. Sayid asks what the test was for, but Lennon merely says that he passed. After Sayid leaves, he asks Dogen if he just lied to him. Dogen says, yes.

----------------

Kate meets up with Claire and asks where she was going. Claire asks, why, so she can hijack them too? Kate gives her a bag and asks again, where was she going? Claire says don't worry about it, and Kate closes the trunk and starts to leave. Claire reluctantly tells her an address, and Kate asks if she has family there. Claire says, no, it was a family that was going to be adopting her baby. They were supposed to meet at the airport but got mixed up or something. Kate tells her that's not far, and to get in the cab. Claire seems skeptical, but agrees.

Kate asks the guards why they want them to stay at the Temple, and Aldo says they're protecting them from the Smoke Monster. Jin asks if he knows about an Ajira flight, and Aldo asks if it's a press conference. The other guard (Justin) starts to talk about a plane, and Aldo tells him to shut up. Kate says the one they're following is a decoy trail. Justin tells Aldo that he thinks she's right, and they follow her. Aldo asks what her strategy is for bringing Sawyer back, and Justin stops Kate from walking into a trap. Aldo says it looks like one of Rousseau's traps. Justin disagrees, but Aldo tells him to shut up. Kate confronts him, and Aldo yells at Kate for being the one to knock him out years ago. She hits him, knocking him out again, and lets the trap hit Justin. Jin asks what she's doing. She says, escaping.

Sayid stumbles into the main foyer of the Temple again. Hurley catches him and asks if he's alright. Jack enters, and Sayid explains that they tortured him, but didn't ask any questions. Jack walks to the door guards and tells them to step aside.

He walks into the Leader's room and the Translator says they were hoping he'd come on his own. He asks what they did to Sayid, and Lennon says they were testing. He says there's no literal translation, the closest thing would be "infected." Jack says he's not even running a fever, and Dogen laughs. Jack asks if he said something funny, and Lennon says he doesn't really have a sense of humor. Dogen holds out a pill and Lennon says he has to give it to his friend. Jack asks why they don't give it to him. Lennon says it only works if he takes it willingly and he won't take it willingly from them. Jack says they should've given it to him before they tortured him. Lennon says they weren't torturing him, they were diagnosing him. Dogen asks how Sayid got shot. Jack says he was helping him. Dogen says it was his fault, and points out the pattern of people getting hurt helping Jack. He hands Jack the pill and says it's medicine, and he needs it. Jack asks what happens if he doesn't give it to him. Dogen says, the infection will spread.

----------------

Miles asks Sayid about the afterlife, who tells him there was nothing spectacular, and he's not a zombie. Jack asks to talk to Sayid alone, and Hurley and Miles leave them. Jack tells him what they said about diagnosing him, and Jack unwraps the pill. Sayid asks what it is. He says it's medicine, according to them. Sayid asks, what about according to you? Jack says he doesn't know. He says he didn't have anything to do with saving Sayid's life. He didn't fix him, they did. Sayid says he doesn't care who fixed him, he only cares about who he trusts. So if Jack wants him to take the pill, he'll do it.

Jin asks where Kate is going, and she says to catch up with Sawyer. Jin asks if she never intended to go back to the Temple, and she says she's not going to be prisoner. Jin demands to know where the plane is, telling her that Sun was on it. Kate asks if he thinks they're going to tell him or if they care about anyone. Jin asks who she cares about. She says good luck and walks away. He asks what she'll do once she catches up with Sawyer. She says they'll figure that out together.

Claire asks what happened to the handcuffs, and Kate says she cut them off. Claire says it's a beautiful neighborhood and they're probably a nice couple. Kate gives a look, and Claire asks what's wrong. She asks if Kate thinks they didn't come to the airport on purpose. Kate says she didn't say that, and Claire says good. Kate pulls up to the house. Claire asks Kate to come in with her, and says she doesn't want to do it on her own. A woman answers the door, and Claire introduces herself. The woman says she's sorry, that her husband left her. She says she wanted the baby so much, but she can't do it alone. She says she should've called. Claire asks if she just changed her mind. The woman stutters out, and Kate says Claire came all the way from Australia. Claire starts to hunch over and says it's coming.

Kate walks through the DHARMA village with a gun. She hears a noise coming from one of the houses and goes to investigate. She finds Sawyer inside, ripping up floorboards. She secretly watches as he finds a box underneath and dusts it off, starting to cry. She starts to leave, and the creaking of the floorboards alerts Sawyer. He draws his gun and walks out to the hallway, finding Kate. He asks what she's doing here. She says she was worried about him. He walks away.

----------------

Kate pulls up to a hospital and helps Claire out. A nurse asks what's happening and she says she's having contractions. The nurse asks if she's with her, and Kate sees a police car. Still, she says yes.

Claire is treated, and Kate walks out and finds a doctor, Ethan, who introduces himself as Dr. Goodspeed. Kate guides him into the room and he says nature got ahead of her, and asks if she's ready to have the baby. He says if she wants she can have her baby tonight, but if she wants to wait she could have some drugs. He says he doesn't want to stick her with needles if he doesn't have to, so it's up to her. She says she's not ready. He starts to recommend the necessary drugs, then the heart rate monitor goes flat. He asks for an ultrasound as Claire screams that Aaron has to be okay. Ethan gets the ultrasound and shows Aaron was just out of position. He says he gets a feeling Aaron is going to be a handful. He explains that things are okay, as Claire clutches Kate's hand.

Kate approaches Sawyer outside. She says that he asked her why she came back to the Island. She says she needs to find Claire. She says she thought maybe she could catch up with him and have him help her. She wants to bring Claire back to Aaron so it wouldn't be for nothing. She apologizes for following him, and he asks which time. She asks if that was his house with Juliet. He says yes. She says she's sorry for Juliet, and that if she hadn't come after him on the sub they would've left and she wouldn't have died. Sawyer says it's not her fault Juliet died, it was his. Sawyer says she was trying to leave, and he convinced her to stay because he didn't want to be alone. He asks if Kate can understand that. He says some people are meant to be alone. He says he was going to ask her to marry him. He gets up, holding an engagement ring, and throws it into the water. He tells Kate she can probably make it back to the Temple by nightfall. Kate starts to cry.

Jack walks in on Dogen, spinning a baseball. Jack says he speaks good English for someone who needs a translator. Dogen says they both know he doesn't need one. Jack asks why he has one, and Dogen says he has to keep a distance from his followers to make it easier for them when he makes hard decisions. He says he was brought here like everyone else. He tells Jack, he knows exactly why he's here. He asks Jack if he gave Sayid the pill, and Jack says no. Dogen asks why not. Jack says he doesn't know what's in it, and demands that he explains. Dogen says he'll just have to trust him. Jack says he doesn't trust himself, so how is he supposed to trust him? Jack says, let's see where trust gets us. He takes in the pill, and Dogen pounces on him, knocking the pill out of his mouth. Jack asks, now are you going to tell me what's in it? Dogen says, poison.

----------------

Claire looks at the ultrasound photo of Aaron. A woman knocks on the door and asks if Ms. Hart is here, who signed in with her. Kate listens from the other room as Claire says that she left and didn't say where she was going. Kate reenters the room and says thanks. Claire asks what Kate did, and Kate asks if she'd believe her if she said she was innocent. Claire says she would. Kate says that she should go. Claire offers Kate her credit card, and Kate says she doesn't have to do this. Claire says she didn't have to do what she did either. Kate says Aaron is a great name, and Claire says she doesn't know why she said it. Kate says she should keep him. Claire wishes her good luck, and Kate wishes it back.

Kate watches Sawyer walk back into the house while she pours water into her canteen. She gets up to leave.

Dogen gives Jack a cup. Jack asks what it is and Dogen says, tea. Jack takes a sip and asks why they'd want to kill Sayid. Dogen starts to talk, but then switches to speaking in Japanese. Lennon says the closest translation is "claimed." Jack asks, claimed by what? Dogen says there is a darkness growing in him, and once it reaches his heart, Sayid will be gone. Jack asks how he can be sure. Dogen says it happened to Jack's sister.

Jin takes a drink of water, but he's assaulted by the two guards. They hold a gun to him and ask where Kate is. He says he doesn't know and he wants to go back to the Temple. Aldo suggest killing him, and Justin says he can't, he's one of them. Aldo says he might be one of them. Jin runs and gets caught in a trap. Aldo holds a gun to him, but is suddenly shot, along with Justin, by a woman standing on the hill Jin recognizes the woman. It's Claire.

Cut to LOST

The Big Questions:

  • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?
  • How did Sayid's wound heal?
  • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?
  • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?
  • What was inside Sawyer's box?
  • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?
  • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?
  • How was Claire "claimed"?
  • If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him?

Lost in the Vines Trivia Question:

What kind of stuffed animal did Kate find in Claire's bag? (be specific)

This Week in Original Articles:

Once again those who write original articles this year will be entered (once per week) in this year's contest. Contributing original articles or being the first to answer the trivia questions are the ways to be entered, so feel free to write!

  • Darlton Cuselof Raise the Stakes: Clan Murphy's Musings on LOST's "LA X" (Debra Murphy)
  • Did 'Lost' introduce a new type of flash? (Michael Sautter)

Next, on Lost: The Substitute

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

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  • Public Discussion (334)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
BAjunkie

I HATE Kate episodes. That said, I'm interested in who/what claimed Sayid. I'll weigh in more tomorrow.

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:45 PM EST
MikeAP

TRIVIA QUESTION

What kind of stuffed animal did Kate find in Claire's bag?

A killer whale

    #1.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:30 PM EST
    bduboftexas

    I agree - I am so 'over' her. And we need to see fewer shirts on Sawyer!! I think she just doesn't pull the 'tough' off too well.

    • 1 vote
    #1.2 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:36 PM EST
    Reply
    Katy-253048

    I'll get to the Big Questions, but did anyone else think Sayid sounded different?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#2 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:47 PM EST
    Jilie

    yes I believe he actually has an english accent and I heard it a lot last night

      #2.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:06 AM EST
      T Bourlon

      The guy IS British - did you see his guest appearance on Law & Order SVU? It was so wierd to hear him talk like that after all these years, but life must go on after Lost.

      • 1 vote
      #2.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 AM EST
      Reply
      Anjillina
    • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him? I don't think so. I think if it had "worked" like it was supposed too, he would have been alive immediately when they got him out of the water. Since there was that huge lapse between the water and his consciousness, they fear that he might have been infected by the dark side.
    • How did Sayid's wound heal? Black magic. Bad joojoo.
    • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture? I thought it was the protective ash stuff. To see if he would react negatively to it even before the torture. He didn't seem too.
    • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming? No clue. Maybe if he was Jacob or a positive being, it wouldn't have hurt? Don't know.
    • What was inside Sawyer's box? Looked like a piece of black ribbon of some sort. Maybe a piece off a wreath or something from when his parents died? Also, I thought he got the ring out of it. I think it was his mother's wedding ring. It looked really old and really tiny, so I thought maybe he saved it.
    • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do? Replaces the actual soul of a person with an emptiness that allows them to be physically alive but no longer a "human" or civilized so to speak. Like when the French guys came out of the Temple and weren't themselves anymore. And the way Rousseau was most of the time. And now it looks like Claire is that way as well. I also think Ben might be mostly that way, but not completely.
    • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor? Well, if the island got blown up and was at the bottom of the sea, which is what was shown on that timeline, then his parents were never on the island and didn't have him there and he never had Ben as his mentor or became a total creep. He was just a guy who grew up and wanted to be a doctor and became one.
    • How was Claire "claimed"? Well, they showed her with Christian. Somehow someone got her to leave the group and leave Aaron way back when. But I still can't imagine what would make her voluntarily do any of that. Unless it appeared as Charlie maybe? But even then, I just don't see her voluntarily leaving Aaron. But then again, maybe it isn't voluntary. Because I think Sayid would have picked death over possession by something other than humanity.
    • Cheers - Hurrah that there was lots of Claire. I really like Claire and have missed her being on the show. Also, Kate is wonderful when she is in action mode. Love that Kate! I also really really like that Sawyer really did love Juliet and that he is being allowed to show that. It was the one really nice, healthy relationship that has been shown and I'm glad the writers are allowing it to have been meaningful. I still like that Hurley is being more assertive. And Miles even made reference to it which was funny.

      Jeers - My head hurts. Who's good? Who's bad? Who are we supposed to pull for?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#3 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:49 PM EST
      BlackRock Steve

      THE LAST OF JACOB'S remaining "PLAYERS" (and of course Jacob):

      1. Sawyer
      2. Kate
      3. Jack
      4. My Man HURLEY
      5. Sun
      6. Jin
      7. Illana
      • 1 vote
      #3.1 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:20 PM EST
      ranturn

      I, too, noticed that when Claire was standing on the hill with the rifle in her hand, she looked haunted and completely disheveled. This is how Rousseau always looked.

      • 6 votes
      #3.2 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:46 PM EST
      blackwidow1

      Hey all

      Couple of things ... several people on here have already mentioned that Claire was somehow lured by Christian into following being claimed for one particular side. I do agree that this is a highly plausible scenario and one I hope we get to find out for sure. Question though - or maybe just a thought - does this mean Jack is the only family member (out of the family members on the island) that will be playing for the opposite side. If Jack is on the side of Jacob and Christian/Claire are on Nemesis' side, why would that be? And is there any significance to the family division?

      Black Rock Steve - THAT would be an awesome team. Sadly, I doubt that's how its going to play out. I have this awful feeling that when this is all said and done we are going to have our guts wrenched and our hearts broken.

      • 2 votes
      #3.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:13 AM EST
      BlackRock Steve

      Hi blackwidow!

      ...that Claire was somehow lured by Christian into following being claimed for one particular side.

      Christian is dead. My view is that when we have seen in the past, he was a manifestation of either MIB/Nemesis or Jacob (when visiting Jack). Definitely Nemesis in the cabin when we saw Claire with him.

      I don't think there's any meaning to the 'family division'...just another reason for Jack to feel responsible and have to "save" someone!

      Black Rock Steve - THAT would be an awesome team. Sadly, I doubt that's how its going to play out.

      Well, they sure are not staying together and working as a "team" but they are the remaining Jacob players that he 'hand picked' to come to the island! He obviously has faith in them and a plan for them.

      • 1 vote
      #3.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:26 AM EST
      Inchiki

      Blackwidow1,

      I don't think there's proof that Christian was on anyone's side, since he was dead before Oceanic took off. Like Locke, it was Smoke as Christian trying to influence our survivors to do things to promote Nemesis' goals. So, it's Jack vs Claire, and we're back to duality.

      • 1 vote
      #3.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:29 AM EST
      Anjillina

      Speaking of Claire and Rousseau - I'm sure I'm not the only one noticing the really odd parallels between them? Separated from their babies. "Crazy" and alone on the island. Setting traps and killing people. Very odd.

      • 8 votes
      #3.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:45 AM EST
      T Bourlon

      "Speaking of Claire and Rousseau - I'm sure I'm not the only one noticing the really odd parallels between them? Separated from their babies. "Crazy" and alone on the island. Setting traps and killing people. Very odd."

      Yeah, the show seems to be repeating itself, but then again....

      • 1 vote
      #3.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:22 AM EST
      opus_rma

      Anjillina, I'll vote for you just because you said "bad joojoo." One of my favorite phrases. :-)

      • 1 vote
      #3.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:34 AM EST
      Anjillina

      lol - thanks! (it helps when I'm at least pseudo-awake and trying to write - better phrasing).

        #3.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST
        Linda-674054

        "I, too, noticed that when Claire was standing on the hill with the rifle in her hand, she looked haunted and completely disheveled. This is how Rousseau always looked."

        I agree, Clair is setting traps and holding a rifle just like Rousseau.

        • 2 votes
        #3.10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:25 PM EST
        bduboftexas

        Remember when they took Claire back in Season 1? Could they have done something to her at that point to cause her to be 'claimed' later on?

        • 1 vote
        #3.11 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:40 PM EST
        Reply
        Steve Watts

        Ah, another episode of Lost. I guess I can be glad they got the Kate episode out of the way early. If my episode doesn't give it away, I'm not a huge fan of Kate, and this episode didn't do much to dissuade me from that position. But more on that in my Jeers.

        CHEERS:

        • The "claimed" revelation was cool, and finally gave us insight as to what's going on with Claire. It makes sense, now, that she would have been in the cabin with Nemesis.
        • The zombie reference was pretty funny. Long-time followers of the official podcast know the creators have been jokingly referring to season 6 as "the zombie season" for years now.
        • Kind of nice to have actual names for Dogen and Lennon.

        JEERS:

        • Oh Kate, can you just have a good episode once? Honestly, half of this episode felt like a waste, communicating things we already knew. Yes, we know Kate feels responsible for losing Claire. Yes, we know she cares about Sawyer. Yes, we know she always runs. There was literally no new information on her, except for her fated connection to Claire. Speaking of which...
        • Why the hell would Claire get in the car with a psychopath who hijacked her cab with a gun? I'm sorry, I know we're supposed to understand that these two women have a special bond that defies alternate realities, but the plot just took too many convenient, nonsensical shortcuts like this one.
        • I'm a little tired of Sulky Sullen Sawyer. I understand he just lost someone he loves, and I'm not asking him to get over it immediately. But at least let the actor, who I like, do a little more than grunt and whisper.

        Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?

        I was thinking that they may have suspected his corruption and decided to kill him, but then it wouldn't have made sense to do that before testing him. My answer on this is "no," but I thought it was a necessary question to ask. For one thing, it makes us wonder when they started to suspect it. I think that seeing him revive, and seeing his wound heal, were their first clues. They could have realized that shouldn't have happened with the corrupted water, but then, why did they dunk him in it? This whole thing is quickly turning into a "what did they know and when did they know it" situation.

        How did Sayid's wound heal?

        I feel reasonably confident in saying this is part of the corruption.

        What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?

        Not sure it really matters. I'll say gunpowder. Dogen was filming an amateur episode of Mythbusters on whether electrodes could make black powder explode on a man's chest.

        How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?

        I think this goes hand-in-hand with his wound healing. Dogen noticed the wound had healed, and knew this had something to do with the corruption. So he hurt him some more, watched those wounds heal as well, and knew for sure.

        What was inside Sawyer's box?

        Some sort of cloth. Again, not sure this is all that important.

        What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?

        If Claire is any indication, it makes you a smirking follower of Nemesis who hangs out in his cabin and comes out once in a while to shoot people from the Temple. Though Claire doesn't seem entirely lost. It's understandable, if corruption aligns you with Nemesis, that she would mindlessly take out Aldo and Justin. But she recognized Jin and, at the very least, hesitated.

        What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?

        No Island, no reason for him to become a "do anything for the Island" follower of Ben. Kind of funny to see him in that capacity.

        How was Claire "claimed"?

        This is my big question of the night. We don't know what caused Sayid to be claimed, so we don't really have a starting point to speculate from. It wouldn't make sense for the corrupted water to be what claimed him, because if that were the case it would be nonsensical for Dogen to force him into it. Maybe they knew the water wasn't clear, but hoped it hadn't been corrupted yet. At any rate, the last we saw Claire, she was no where near that corrupted water, so either that's not it or there's more than one method of corruption.

        If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him?

        My other big question of the night. We know that the Temple followers are on Jacob's side. We know Jacob wanted Sayid saved. We know the Temple followers tried to save him, and have concluded that he's corrupted. And we know that Jacob called saving Sayid a necessity for the big conflict that's brewing. So if Sayid is corrupted, is there any way to save him? Is he lost? I think he may still be revived as Jacob incarnate, and that may be the only way to stop the corruption completely.

        Also, since Jacob is a pretty messianic figure, did anyone else get a vaguely Judeo-Christian vibe with the word "claimed" being thrown around so much? I know Christian lore tends to say Satan "claims" souls.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#4 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:50 PM EST
        BlackRock Steve

        This is my big question of the night. We don't know what caused Sayid to be claimed, so we don't really have a starting point to speculate from.

        Steve, for me there was a big plot reveal in last season's finale and last week episode...Jacob's (the great protector) temple and his 'healing spring' against the Nemesis/Smokey...god of darkness. Jacob dies so of course it is now the time of darkness and hence the Jacob spring is no longer empowered by Jacob by rather Nemesis.

        did anyone else get a vaguely Judeo-Christian vibe with the word "claimed" being thrown around so much?

        BTW...Claiming souls for the underworld, etc. is also referenced in both Egyptian and Greek mythology. This wasn't nearly as strong a Judeo-Christian/biblical vibe for me as the portrayal of Jacob's death...sacrificing himself JC style...they did everything to drive home that reference except have Ben put him on a cross!!!

        • 4 votes
        #4.1 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:15 PM EST
        scrambledeggs

        Oh, good call! Maybe the springs only run clear when Jacob is in control, and they are discolored when MIB has the edge!

        • 2 votes
        #4.2 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:40 PM EST
        BlackRock Steve

        My thought exactly....more of the "light" / "dark" metaphor!!

        • 3 votes
        #4.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:09 AM EST
        Merlin-834235

        ~ Steve ~

        If you spell it "Dogan" it means "Derogatory term for a person who follows the Catholic faith." if you spell it "Dōgen" it "was a Japanese Zen Buddhist teacher born in Kyōto, and the founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan after travelling to China and training under the Chinese Caodong lineage there. Dōgen is known for his extensive writing including the Treasury of the Eye of the True Dharma or Shōbōgenzō, a collection of ninety-five fascicles concerning Buddhist practice and enlightenment.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dgen

        I'm just sayin'.... Dunno what it means...

        -=M=-
        ‹(•¿•)›

        .

        • 5 votes
        #4.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:07 AM EST
        blackwidow1

        Merlin

        Thanks! I do believe you've given me my research project for tomorrow. I will be fired soon for lack of focus on work LOL ... its snowing a ton here, maybe tomorrow will be a good day to use that paid time off!

        • 1 vote
        #4.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:25 AM EST
        BlackRock Steve

        Merlin's done it again, and so has Cuse & Lindelof....always symbolic names; they just never quit! Per, Lostpedia, they not only already have a page up on the Dogen character and the same name reference that Merlin describes, but check this out for symbolism: the real Dogen died on the same month/date as the crash of Oceanic 815, September 22nd! How do these guys keep coming up with things like this??

        http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dogen

        • 6 votes
        #4.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:42 AM EST
        T Bourlon

        There's a lostpedia! Whoa, and I thought I was obsessed!

        • 1 vote
        #4.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:28 AM EST
        Superman2001

        Also, since Jacob is a pretty messianic figure, did anyone else get a vaguely Judeo-Christian vibe with the word "claimed" being thrown around so much? I know Christian lore tends to say Satan "claims" souls.

        Christian lore doesn't really say that. That's more mythology and such, but isn't an actual Christian teaching. At least not based on the Bible. And maybe I'm splitting hairs here, because the Bible does say that Satan and his demons possess humans and other living creatures as a sick perversion, but that's not what I got from "infected".

        • 1 vote
        #4.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:42 PM EST
        TexanForObama

        I think the engagement ring is what Sawyer was getting out of the box, no?

        • 2 votes
        #4.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:03 PM EST
        Reply
        BlackRock Steve

        The great show continues, more reveals after another!! Sayid is now a ‘player’ for Nemesis man! The water of light…Jacob’s clear healing spring… was dark & bloody because Jacob died and it is now the time of darkness, since Jacob is dead and MIB/Nemesis rules!

      • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?
      • NO, they were trying to use Jacob's healing spring to save him.

      • How did Sayid's wound heal?
      • As a god, Nemesis has the same power as does Jacob; he just uses it to attain his end rather than Jacob for the "good" of others and to save.

      • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?
      • The same powder or ash used to "chain" and stop Smokey/Nemesis from 'claiming' souls to be his 'players'.

      • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?
      • Similar to determining if he was a Republican or Democrat...looking for a connection to identify if there is a soul....Not sure about the electrode process or why....or how they new he had failed!?

      • What was inside Sawyer's box?
      • Missed it!! Looked like a piece of cloth.

      • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?
      • Welcome to the dark side...Smokey/Nemesis claims souls to be his 'players'.

      • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?
      • I'd have to refresh my memory, but wasn't Ethan shot by Charlie? Need time to process and analyse this one...maybe, in altered state, his new kindly soul is the connection to Claire.

      • How was Claire "claimed"?
      • Now we know the answer to the question we originally debated…what kind of mother just leaves her baby in the jungle for Sawyer to find…one who goes to the dark side…Following the attack on Dahmaville, Claire died, which is why she was seen in the cabin with Nemesis/Christian by Locke. She too is a Nemesis ‘player’ and his follower now.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#5 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:56 PM EST
        BlackRock Steve

        Then again, Claire may not have died but could easily have been 'claimed' by Nemesis since she believed she was following her Dad, Christian (Nemesis manifestation) and we'll probably find out that she was also visited by Charlie (Nemesis manifestation) who told her to do the same. She is obviously with Nemesis now so Jacob has lost that player...but then he already knew that when he died; he still has faith in the rest of his players and a master plan in the works to overcome and still defeat Nemesis, which is why he allowed himself to be killed by Ben...and what he meant by "they are coming"!!

        • 1 vote
        #5.1 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:32 PM EST
        ranturn

        That seems like a plausible explanation to me BlackRock Steve, that Claire died and that is why she left her baby to follow her father into the jungle. Because under any normal circumstances (and nothing is normal on this show), a mother would not leave her child.

        However, if she didn't die, what force would be more powerful, than her own love and attachment for her child, to cause her to leave that child? I can't see how Nemesis can overpower the love a mother can have for her child.

        • 1 vote
        #5.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:48 AM EST
        BlackRock Steve

        BTW....POOR JACK??: How did you all react to Dogen's comments...truth or ??

        Did Jack have yet another opportunity to be a man of faith and redeem himself but failed by not getting Sayid to take the pill...or, did he...by NOT doing something out of blind faith and trust and taking it himself in order to test Dogen and get the truth about the pill being poison??

        • 3 votes
        #5.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:52 AM EST
        Merlin-834235

        ~ BlackRock Steve ~

        I think the "Ring" was in Sawyers box.... epi just ended here . 'out West' . I'll take a look as soon as it comes up on ABC replay... let you know if I find out different.

        -=M=-
        ‹(•¿•)›

          #5.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:20 AM EST
          T Bourlon

          Got a question for you, Black Rock Steve. Claire had been a messed up kid, but overall a pretty good person, who suddenly walks away from her baby & follows her Dad. And he took her to the cabin, apparently, for indoctrination, perhaps? The cabin was surrounded by the ash, and last week one of the guys protected himself by - standing in a circle of ash! Smokey had to knock him out of the circle before he could kill him. THEREFORE, I think it's JACOB in the cabin, not Smokey!

          But here's the question: Why would Smokey claim Locke, who was like Claire, a messed up but basically good person, and reject Mr. Ecko? Mr. Ecko confessed that he was not sorry about anything before Smokey killed him, yet Sayid has always been full of repentance for his crimes. He even lamented the people he tortured & killed while he was bleeding to death. Maybe he only wants good people he can corrupt??? But I don't really think Sayid has been "claimed" by Smokey anymore than Claire has.

          Un-Locke, what a great term! That was clever.

          • 1 vote
          #5.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:43 AM EST
          evilgenius

          The cabin was surrounded by the ash, and last week one of the guys protected himself by - standing in a circle of ash! Smokey had to knock him out of the circle before he could kill him. THEREFORE, I think it's JACOB in the cabin, not Smokey!

          But when the Ajira people found the cabin the circle of ash was broken.

            #5.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST
            Linda-674054

            The ash being broken either let Smokey/MIB out or let him in to get Jacob.

              #5.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:29 PM EST
              say what??

              And the cabin moves. It moved when Hurley first saw it, and the second time Locke went to find it he found the ash ring but the cabin was gone. If the cabin moves, what's the point of the ash?

                #5.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:34 PM EST
                blackwidow1

                The cabin moves ... you're right. The island moves also. Hmmmm?

                Does the island only move when moving through time? Maybe the cabin is also moving through some time dimension that's why it appears and disappears?

                When lock found the ash ring but no cabin was the ash ring broken? Maybe the ash ring anchors the cabin (or whatever its encircling) in time?

                • 1 vote
                #5.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:46 PM EST
                kcjhawk

                Just because we couldn't see the cabin didn't mean it wasn't there. And wasn't it Hurley who broke the ring, accidentally?

                  #5.10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:37 PM EST
                  DerryGirl

                  Ranturn said However, "if she didn't die, what force would be more powerful, than her own love and attachment for her child, to cause her to leave that child?" But didn't Rousseau do the same thing all those years ago - decide to leave her child with Ben, because she believed had been contaminated by Smokey when the other French guys came out of the temple hole, right? Maybe Claire's circumstances were similar. They even brought Rousseau up when discussing the trap Aldo says it looks like one of Rousseau's traps. Justin disagrees, but Aldo tells him to shut up. Coincidence? I don't think so..

                    #5.11 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:55 PM EST
                    Susanaree

                    Before they leave my porous mind, a few thoughts. I'm starting to see a parallel between Ben and Dogen with respect to John Locke and Sayid.

                    Ben and Dogen are both leaders of the Others, in different respects. Both discover they are no longer "favored" by the Island - Ben gets cancer, Dogen's wound does not heal.

                    Then, John Locke is healed by the Island, and Ben tortures him psychologically and mercilessly. Sayid is similarly healed, and Dogen tortures him, literally and mercilessly.

                    Both of these leaders are threatened by the favoritism shown to these two.

                    Crazy? Maybe.

                    • 1 vote
                    #5.12 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:25 PM EST
                    ctina1973

                    I'm late to the party and haven't read the whole page yet, but I think Claire died when the cabin in Dharmaville exploded with her in it. She could have been revived and infected at that time. There is a lag between infection and total corruption so there was plenty of time between that and when they were out in the jungle after the factions split and she wandered off.

                    Sorry if this was already mentioned. I'm in more intensive school this semester and don't have the time I used to read the whole thing. Dangit. Stupid priorities..

                      #5.13 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:53 PM EST
                      say what??

                      But didn't Rousseau do the same thing all those years ago - decide to leave her child with Ben, because she believed had been contaminated by Smokey when the other French guys came out of the temple hole, right?

                      Ben forced her at gunpoint to give him week old Alex. Charles Widmore sent him to kill Rousseau and when he got there he saw she had a baby. He took the baby and let Rousseau live, warning her to run the other way if she ever heard whispers.

                      • 3 votes
                      #5.14 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:32 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Bandit-847315

                      What a great show tonight.

                      Cheers,

                      Hurley, the new man in charge

                      Sawyer, actually has feelings

                      Jeers

                      Is anyone else getting tired of Jack

                      The Big Questions:

                      • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?
                      • I don't think so, they were doing as Jacob instructed
                      • How did Sayid's wound heal?
                      • The water worked, only took a little longer
                      • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?
                      • The same dust that is being used to protect them from smokey
                      • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?
                      • They felt if he was Jacob, it would not hurt him
                      • What was inside Sawyer's box?
                      • The ring and memories of Juliet
                      • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?
                      • Nothing comes to mind here
                      • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?
                      • Again, lost
                      • How was Claire "claimed"?
                      • Again

                      Pretty good show, not a great show. I am so getting tired of the way Jack is handling things. Nice to have Clair and Kate work together, something will happen so that Kate ends up with Aaron again. Any thoughts on why they really want to kill Sayid?

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#6 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 10:59 PM EST
                      Deborah SG

                      I certainly am getting tired of Jack's pouting, and Kate's "I'm so intelligent, but what am I missing here?" look.

                      Poor Evangeline Lilly. Her character had such promise in Season 1.

                      I agree with others that Sawyer had mourning cloth in his box, along with the ring. This was his treasure box.

                      Love William Mapother's acting chops. From "In the Bedroom" to his dual character on "Lost," IMHO he surely is the more talented of the Cruise-Mapother acting duet.

                      Sayid's torture = drowning or burning a witch to see if the person is human.

                      Claire's trusting Kate - Two young women, alone in the world, and both know it. But I didn't buy the adoptive mom. Central casting, anyone?

                      • 2 votes
                      #6.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:30 AM EST
                      TexanForObama

                      Deborah SG - 'central casting anyone?' - ha!! I have to agree with you about the adoptive mom - I thought that was ridiculous! I know she is going through a lot, but I find it hard to believe that someone would go to all of the trouble to adopt a baby from Australia only to forget about it?!? Seems to me she'd have been planning for months and months, no? :-)

                      • 1 vote
                      #6.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:23 PM EST
                      Superman2001

                      I've had phone calls to make that I simply forgot to make, or kept putting off. I don't think she really forgot to call Claire. I think she just blew it off because she didn't want to deal with it.

                      • 1 vote
                      #6.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:30 PM EST
                      kcjhawk

                      I think some of the things that happen in the "new" 2004 are over the top to reinforce how crappy things would be for all of them if the crash hadn't happened.

                      • 1 vote
                      #6.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:39 PM EST
                      Bandit-847315

                      The dual timeline thing is interesting to say the least. With the producers having quite a bit to do with the Star Trek movie this past year (Great by the way), there could be some clues there. An earlier post was assuming that there can only be one entity in one timeline, I often assumed that myself, only one Hurley, Jack, Kate, Etc. With Star Trek (Spoiler Alert if you have not seen the movie) at the end of the movie, young Spock met a much older Spock. Could both timelines be real? Could they both be living at the same timeline? Is there a possibility that they might meet themselves? Just a thought?

                      • 2 votes
                      #6.5 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:24 PM EST
                      Reply
                      scrambledeggs

                      Good evening everyone! This episode I think threw out a lot of subtle bread crumbs related to the medical/folklore/culture of the the people living in that temple.

                      First, I don't think that they intended to drown Sayid. I think they were following the established procedure for this (Baptismal) dunking, having to wait for the exact length of time that was needed for the person to be healed completely. It was clear that the healing didn't "take", and since the available dead body was there, MIB claimed it. Sayid's wound didn't heal from the waters - I think MIB plugs holes when he inhabits a body (the wound was closed but certainly not healed). I thought that the ashes and the torturing of Sayid were meant to get the smoke monster to lash out, but since nothing obvious happened, not sure how the quiet showed that he failed the test. I think the "claiming" is either Jacob or MIB grabbing the body of whichever the most useful person is at times during their game. Could Claire have been claimed while she was alive? Up til now, it seems like you need to be dead, or almost dead. This group of others seem to be able to control who claims people's bodies, when they dunk them in the spring in the temple.

                      Now, that poison got me perked up. That indoor greenhouse is growing medicinal herbs, I think. Poisoning doesn't seem to be a accurate way to target a possessing entity, but I thought of hemlock - that was used in ancient Greece - Socrates died from this - it was also used to kill off prisoners, and there were chained guys on the Black Rock...It's a neurotoxin, so maybe it zeros in on the goul in your brain to make it leave you :) It was said to slowly paralyze the body until it reached the heart, causing death. The "infection" was described tonight as a 'darkness that spreads to the heart, then there's nothing left'...

                      Ethan is Mr. Nice Doctor in this alternate existence just like Hurley believes he's lucky, and Boone didn't bring his sister back home with him. Ethan said of the baby "he's going to be a handful."

                      The book that was with the skeleton under the temple was discussed in last week's posting - Fear & Trembling - it's an interpretation of the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrafice his only son, because that's what God asked him to do.

                      Sawyer hid an engagement ring in that shoebox. Not sure where it came from, but he let Kate see it later, and threw it in the water.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#7 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:30 PM EST
                      BlackRock Steve

                      Hi se!!

                      I thought of you right away when I saw Dogen doing his medicinal thing and growing herbs...don't you just love it...Alchemy rules and is still in the story!!! Long live the Alchemist!!

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.1 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:39 PM EST
                      scrambledeggs

                      Wish I had this much enthusiasm for it when I was failing chemistry in school!

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.2 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:43 PM EST
                      boonesfarm

                      Doesn't Boone's sister have to be on the plane, if she was on the plane to begin with? Maybe she was just sitting in a different section, since she was upset with her brother.

                      It makes sense that MIB got in when Sayid had died, as I don't think Hurley had revealed that Jacob was dead at that point and thus they had not started spreading the ash around the temple.... but please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

                      Love the chats!

                        #7.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:17 AM EST
                        keith.corrigan

                        Boone said in the premier that he went to help his sister out of bad realtionship and that it turned out she didn't actually want out of it. To me this kinda of implied that she wasn't on the plane.

                        • 2 votes
                        #7.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                        Reply
                        Inchiki

                        I promised myself that I wouldn't look at the other entries before putting down some thoughts. Thought - A lot of this would come into focus once we know the nature of the conflict between Jacob and Nemesis, which I believe is more yin/yang rather than Good vs. Evil. Accordingly, the resolution would be more of reconciling the dual natures, e.g. Jack gaining a measure of faith. Which gives a lot of weight to Rose and Bernard's outlook and how this may "free" Jacob and Nemesis from their game. And furthermore, this means that one side cannot truly defeat the other, so this conflict is eternal. Jack and Sawyer taking over the duties of Jacob and Nemesis?

                        Well, enough rambling, some questions answered?

                        • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him? No, Sayid is important but the waters were polluted. There are risks—strange that no one asked what exactly what those risks were.
                        • How did Sayid's wound heal? The waters healed the wound as it was supposed to.
                        • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture? Thought it was ash to bind any spirits that came out (see below).
                        • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming? I was expecting that this would be like an exorcism . . . that the possessor would be forced out of the body.
                        • What was inside Sawyer's box? Sawyer reclaimed the ring he was planning to propose to Juliet.
                        • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do? Spiritual, as they explained, that one’s heart is darkened. That person would be loyal to Nemesis, as there is sufficient evidence to consider him evil, such as all the innocent people he’s killed as the Smoke Monster. Is this how Richard Alpert became Jacob’s follower?
                        • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor? Cameo-verse, not sure if there’s any relevance to Ethan being in the story.
                        • How was Claire "claimed"? If I remember correctly, she was claimed at Jacob’s cabin, which was under the of the Smoke Monster. Evidently she was injured along the way as she had to survive on her own for some time. She was following the image of Christian, which was the Smoke Monster all this time?
                        • If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him? It could be straight forward as Sayid was supposed to take the side of “good”. Or it could be more devious. Maybe he was saved to provide a test for Jack, as the man of science (doctor) must again confront his lack of faith. In any event, Sayid will play his part and Jacob seems to have seen many steps ahead of Nemesis.
                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#8 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:41 PM EST
                        blackwidow1

                        Hiya Inchiki

                        Thought - A lot of this would come into focus once we know the nature of the conflict between Jacob and Nemesis, which I believe is more yin/yang rather than Good vs. Evil. Accordingly, the resolution would be more of reconciling the dual natures, e.g. Jack gaining a measure of faith. Which gives a lot of weight to Rose and Bernard's outlook and how this may "free" Jacob and Nemesis from their game. And furthermore, this means that one side cannot truly defeat the other, so this conflict is eternal.

                        I have to say I really, really like this ... very much

                        • 2 votes
                        #8.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:23 AM EST
                        Reply
                        blackwidow1

                        Good evening all.

                        Another Tuesday. Another episode of Lost. Another night to say "arghhhhhhhhhhhh!"

                        Hurley! Zombie! Love ya dude!

                        And a big "right on" to Sawyer! He had the kahoonas to stand by his choice - Juliet - and say goodbye to Kate. He has matured into a truly honorable man. I certainly hope this episode puts the end to the love triangle/quadrangle/whatever. Judging by Kate's tears that would be my guess.

                        -------------------------------------------------------------

                        Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?

                        No. The temple spring is where healing waters heal the wounded. I believe that Dogen and Lennon were confused by the fact that the water wasn't clear but were willing to risk the chance of death - or as we later learn - possible infection because they were instructed perform the healing ceremony on Sayid (possibly instructed by the note in Jacob's ankh). BTW - The recap show at 8 pm stated that this was how Ben was saved as a child.

                        How did Sayid's wound heal?

                        The healing waters of the temple spring. Dogen cut his hand and placed in the water in last week's episode hoping to heal it (as is confirmed in the recap show). Sayid's wound would similarly heal.

                        What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?

                        The same ash that repels the smoke monster. I think it is not just ordinary ash but perhaps ash from burned banyan trees that various characters hide in when confronted by the smoke monster early on in the series. If his body would have reacted in a violent manner (ex holy water sprinkled on Regan in "The Exorcist") then they would have been certain as to which "side" Sayid was claimed by.

                        How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?

                        This I found very interesting and ironic. Sayid, after all, was a torturer in the real world ... and tortured people on the island ... so in some respects, it was Sayid's getting his just desserts, so to speak. I'm not entirely sure, however, to answer this question at this point. If the ash that was poured over his chest was indeed a test as to which side claimed him (as I claim above), and his body didn't react ... then I'm not sure why the electrocution and burning were necessary. Something to ponder instead of working tomorrow (LOL! I am so totally NOT productive at work on Wednesdays!)

                        What was inside Sawyer's box?

                        Momentos of his life with Juliet. Rather uncharacteristic for Sawyer although he did hold onto that letter he had written to the real Sawyer for all those years, didn't he? A changed Sawyer perhaps? Holding onto something good for a change. Maybe just the first truly good thing he had in his life. I also think the ring he was going to give Juliet was in the box and that is what he was going there for before going off into the wilderness on his own.

                        What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?

                        At this point, the claiming is a choosing of sides. Not a conscience choice by the individual, but the luck of the draw ... the roll of the dice. Person goes into the water and comes out a player on either the side of lightness or darkness - to keep with the black/white theme that's been so prevalent on this show. If Dogen deems the person on the side of Jacob (I'm NOT conviced his is the light side just yet ... I've a work in progress on that entire topic) then he/she is allowed to stay with the Others - as was Ben. If the person is deemed by Dogen to be on the side of the Nemesis then he/she is killed as he attempted to do with Sayid (found it very, very interesting that they couldn't kill Sayid with the poison, Sayid had to willingly take the pill ... very familiar concept by now I'd say.)

                        What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?

                        All I can say is ewwwwww Ethan. This guy gives me the creeps regardless of how kindly he is. I know I sound like I'm 14 (and I am most definitely not) but Ethan has always just creeped me out. No island ... no influence by the Others ... no icky Ethan. Moving on ... quickly.

                        How was Claire "claimed"?

                        I would have to guess in the same way as Ben and Sayid. I certainly do hope we get to learn for sure how she got to the point where she would need to be healed by the Others. And the way the episode ended, it looks as if we just might.

                        Speaking of Claire. I do like how she's seems to be the new Rousseau ... wild woman who's lost her child, setting her traps and skulking around the jungle with her gun. And I guess they are alluding to Rousseau being "claimed" by the darkness ... which kinda puts a different spin on her character to say the least.

                        ------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Now on to read what those much quicker posters above have to say. How do y'all get these posted so quickly?

                        • 2 votes
                        #9 - Tue Feb 9, 2010 11:57 PM EST
                        Inchiki

                        Salud, BW1. Thought - I read a post last Wednesday for LA X which stated that there was no alternate timeline/dimension, according to the producers. I'm beginning to believe that statement . . . that the "timeline" is more of a narrative device. It shows that the Oceanic survivors are connected on some deeper level. It also shows--in Nemesis' words--the type of pitiful lives that the survivors had off the Island, so it's sort of a reverse "It's a Wonderful Life." Which is why Locke was disappointed with all the current survivors as he left the temple--that most of them just wanted to get off the Island and back to their pitiful lives. Or maybe he was just railing at people in general since they haven't progressed enough to finish this game.

                        Thought - granted we really have not seen Nemesis turn into Locke/Smoke Monster, there's some evidence that they are the same. The killings of the French scientists by Smokey is only one example of its evil nature. Deceit has always been a hallmark of evil, and Locke/Smoke again has exemplified this evil characteristic.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:16 AM EST
                        blackwidow1

                        I just read a comment today made by one of the producers that says that the mystery of this season is to try to figure out why we are seeing both storylines and how they fit together. At least until they spell it out for us.

                        I agree that Nemesis/Un-Locke/Smoke Monster are one in the same. And I also agree that there is a a definite "bad" vs "good" element to this story in general. And we've seen a lot of evil characteristics throughout.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:34 AM EST
                        Anjillina

                        Quick posting = sit in front of computer on "Lost in the Vines" hitting refresh until Steve posts - then I post. LOL. I usually try to wait until he answers the questions as well, but was too sleepy last night.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:11 AM EST
                        Herbcules74

                        Anjillina

                        What I usually do is pull up one of the other articles and do all of my typing there, as soon as the show is over. Then when Steve posts his article I just do a quick cut and paste. That's how my posts are up so fast. It also proves just how sick in the head I am for this damn show!

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:40 AM EST
                        Pfemm

                        I agree that Nemesis/Un-Locke/Smoke Monster are one in the same. And I also agree that there is a a definite "bad" vs "good" element to this story in general. And we've seen a lot of evil characteristics throughout

                        I'm not sure if MIB/Nemesis is the Smoke monster... It does make sense, though.

                        but i am curious about Locke's real body that's just hanging out on the beach.

                        Did they just bring his body for no other reason than to prove that Smokey wasn't the actual John Locke we all know and love :)

                        Or is he going to bounce back later as well... He does seem to keep well considering they're on a beach.

                        • 3 votes
                        #9.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:30 AM EST
                        blackwidow1

                        Yeah ... but how do you answer the questions so fast? I even jotted down notes last night about what I thought the questions might be about and while I was close on some of them it still took me time to get my comments focused on what I wanted to say for each particular topic (I tend to ramble if you haven't noticed :))

                        LOL not that it really matters in the long run ... I'm just in awe and amazement of the quickness and thoughfulness of the responses y'all give each week ... a bow of respect to all of you!

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:41 AM EST
                        BAjunkie

                        I'm not sure if MIB/Nemesis is the Smoke monster

                        He definitely is. This was answered in LA X, when Jacob's protectors came in and shot at Flocke (fake Locke), he ran out of sight, then the smoke monster came in and killed them. Shortly after the smoke monster retreated, Flocke came back and said "I'm sorry you had to see me like that".

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:49 AM EST
                        Inchiki

                        Morning,

                        Thanks for the direction regarding whether the "alternate" timelines are real or not in #9.2 above.

                        And as I was using the restrooom--because that's where the best thinking occurs--I came up with an idea. Since the writers have a thing about time travel and physics, in general, I started thinking about quantum physics and related stuff. What I'm trying to describe may be wrong but it's been a long time since having a science class, but I like the concept because it's also related to the dual nature of things.

                        I think the term is indeterminancy. For example, light is supposed to be both a particle and a wave. For subatomic particles, both the position and momentum cannot be known, only one attribute at a time. A clearer explanation is the famous Schrodinger's Cat, where it's not known whether the titular cat is alive or dead until the box where the cat is in is opened.

                        Applying this to our intrepid Oceanic survivors, there are not separate timelines. They, the survivors, are in an undetermined state where they are both on the Island and in the USA. Some will say this is quibbling but there is a fine distinction. Some event, like opening the box for Schrodinger's cat, will "determine" their existence and collapse the other timelines.

                        • 8 votes
                        #9.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 PM EST
                        Anjillina

                        Honestly widow I think it has more to do with quick typing. I just answer off the top of my head and it helps if I do it right after the show (as opposed to last week when I had to do it the next day). But typing speed - mine is very fast. Actually took two years of old school typing back in the day as a back up in case I couldn't work in any field I was interested in. So much faster than a lot of the hunt and peckers I know.

                        And Inchiki! Kudos on a great idea! I like that whole Schrodinger's Cat thing. It makes more sense than most of the other things I've read.

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:05 PM EST
                        evilgenius

                        Vvery intersting take on the flashsideways idea. I like it! It would answer the question of the weird looks the charactures have at times towards other charactures and Juliet's message of "It worked".

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:09 PM EST
                        Pfemm

                        He definitely is. This was answered in LA X, when Jacob's protectors came in and shot at Flocke (fake Locke), he ran out of sight, then the smoke monster came in and killed them. Shortly after the smoke monster retreated, Flocke came back and said "I'm sorry you had to see me like that".

                        hmm.. .I didn't explain that well... I know that Flocke (that's awesome btw) is the Smoke Monster... I'm just not sure that the Smoke Monster Flocke is the MIB... I know they kinda allude to it by referencing the "you finally found a loophole" but i don't like taking things at face value on the show...

                        They've trained us to look at EVERYTHING with a skeptical eye... the whole "are we seeing what's really going on or are we just seeing what they want us to see until they completely flip it" thing :)

                          #9.11 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:14 PM EST
                          JohnBoy813

                          It really is a big assumption that Locke/Nemesis is smoky, our only proff is that they have not yet been scene at the same place at the same time. It's like 'Look their's Superman, but where's Clark' or 'Look Clark is back, but where is Superman'. It is possible that Locke/Nemesis just went back into the corridor and summoned Smokey to take care of his enemies. We never saw a metamorphisis occur.

                          • 1 vote
                          #9.12 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:59 PM EST
                          BAjunkie

                          We never saw a metamorphisis occur.

                          But he did say 'I'm sorry you had to see me like that', which seems to strongly imply that he was the smoke monster.

                          • 4 votes
                          #9.13 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:07 PM EST
                          JohnBoy813

                          It is all about mind control, as I mentioned before Ben did not actually see the change he only assumed it and Locke/Nemesis is just using that. Now it is quite possible and most likely true that he isthe smoke monster, but until I see the effect of him changing I will be suspecious of what is said.

                          • 2 votes
                          #9.14 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:23 PM EST
                          say what??

                          Speaking of Claire. I do like how she's seems to be the new Rousseau ... wild woman who's lost her child, setting her traps and skulking around the jungle with her gun. And I guess they are alluding to Rousseau being "claimed" by the darkness

                          Rousseau had a lot of time to explore the island and she called one area the "dark territory" or "the most dangerous place" - it's where the Black Rock is and where Smokey is very active. She spent 16 years exposing herself to anything and everything so there was lots of opportunity for her to be "claimed." [If you're interested her maps are on Lostpedia and she describes one area as "the extremely dangerous rivers (the strange light and sounds)"].

                          • 1 vote
                          #9.15 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:55 PM EST
                          Reply
                          scrambledeggs

                          Maybe the "risk" that was taken in putting someone in the spring water was that you may be healed/saved by the good guy or the bad guy?

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:01 AM EST
                          BlackRock Steve

                          I immediately reacted to the "risk" thing as either that Jacob would not heal/save someone if they were a follower of ('claimed') by Nemesis or have wondered since last week if it referred to the famous Richard line of last season when taking little shot Ben that "He will always be one of us", and not remember the past!?

                          • 1 vote
                          #10.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:15 AM EST
                          Reply
                          Aqualeo

                          Cheers

                          • Claire finally being back on the show. This episode felt more like her show than Kate's.
                          • Sayid Saying that he is not a Zombie.
                          • Aldo just because I love "It's Always Sunny in Phillydelphia

                          Jeers

                          • Kate episode
                          • All the Sawyer drama... I just don't care
                          • Aldo gets shot.

                          The Big Questions:

                          Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?

                          no they where trying to save him at that point.

                          How did Sayid's wound heal?

                          The Darkness

                          What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?

                          Maybe the Ash?

                          How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?

                          He can not be injured. Proves the Darkness is in him.

                          What was inside Sawyer's box?

                          I'll be surprised if it's anything more than the ring. Next week's preview did have him and MIB back there though

                          What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?

                          Makes you work for the Darkness, whether that is MIB or Jacob.

                          What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?

                          He was never on the island in the flashsideways

                          How was Claire "claimed"?

                          No idea

                          If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him?

                          If Jacob really is the bad guy he needs to "Claim" everyone.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#11 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:13 AM EST
                          ranturn

                          Just some observations after watching tonight's episode: "Darkness growing in him", The Dark Side - does that remind anyone of Star Wars? Last year, on one of Steve's April blogs entitled "Hurley Gives Miles Advice in Some Like it Hoth", Hurley had many references to Star Wars. I see so many similarities here with the "Empire Strikes Back." The "Dark Side" is taking over, a war is coming, etc. Coincidence?

                          When Claire was in the hospital having the ultrasound and uttered Aaron's name, Kate seemed like she reacted upon hearing Aaron's name. Did anyone else catch that? It also seemed that whenever they showed Claire in LA, she seemed angelic sort of (soft light, backlit hair). What a contrast in appearances when they showed her on the hill with the rifle in her hand.

                          Because everything is usually connected or significant on this show, I am thinking that Jim getting caught in the snare means something but it is too late for me to fully think this over. But the snare caught my eye. Put there by Rousseau or Claire?

                          Much use of the word "Trust" tonight. Dogen tells Jack that Sayid trusts him. "You just have to trust me", Dogen says to Jack when he realizes Jack did not give Sayid the pill.

                          It was actually very sad watching Sawyer pull out his worldly possessions from a shoe box (similar to what a child would do). It seemed like he was cradling a piece of cloth but whether it was from his mother or Juliet, I do not know. I am sure that engagement ring was in the shoe box and perhaps the cloth was wrapped around the ring. I have a feeling that ring is going to turn up again. This is Lost, and sometimes minor details end up becoming more important than we think. That ring represented love, commitment, loyalty - traits Sawyer certainly showed while with Juliet.

                          Seemed like Dogen wanted to perform an "exorcism" on Sayid.

                          One last thought......why was the mechanic not the least bit afraid when Kate was brandishing the gun? He seemd very nonchalent about the whole thing. Have we seen him before?

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#12 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:27 AM EST
                          BlackRock Steve

                          Hi ranturn,

                          Couldn't agree more on your comments about Sawyer!!! Yes that mechanic was cool about the gun; don't recall seeing him before unless it was many seasons ago...Was it me or did he look like he could be an older or younger brother of pilot Frank??

                            #12.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:15 AM EST
                            Inchiki

                            Nice call on Empire Strikes Back, one of the truly good movies in the Star Wars saga. Before I start to go postal on Star Wars Eps 1-3 . . . . As there are only a few plot designs--six, or so I've heard--there are stories that get retold, specifically "The Hero's Journey." Luke Skywalker's transformation from farm boy to Jedi Knight is based on this Hero's Journey template. If you're interested, look into Joseph Campbell and his book called "Hero with a Thousand Faces."

                            • 1 vote
                            #12.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:21 AM EST
                            blackwidow1

                            ranturn

                            Completely agree with your observation about Kate reacting when hearing Aaron's name. I think had similar reactions throughout the episode - when she saw Jack on the phone during her escape (or maybe she was just remembering him from bumping into him on the plane) ... when she opened Claire's bag and saw the picture. Actually several times with regard to Claire.

                            Similar to some of Jack's moments of "recognition" or deja vu in last weeks episode.

                            • 2 votes
                            #12.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:42 AM EST
                            ranturn

                            You're right BlackRock Steve: He did remind me of Frank.

                            And maybe Frank was supposed to be the adoptive father of Claire's baby, but instead, decided to run out on his wife? Do we know anything about Frank's back story? I also tried to think of another character who that could have been, but unless it was one of the Others, I couldn't come up with anyone else.

                            • 2 votes
                            #12.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:54 AM EST
                            Pfemm

                            that ring is going to turn up again.

                            It would be interesting if they show Sawyer with the ring in the LA timeline... he could give it to someone... it'd be interesting to see who that could be.. if it's magically Juliet or if its more subtle like Juliet is in the vicinity when he is looking at it.... she bumps into him on the street and he drops it or something....

                            • 2 votes
                            #12.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:00 PM EST
                            Pfemm

                            And maybe Frank was supposed to be the adoptive father of Claire's baby, but instead, decided to run out on his wife? Do we know anything about Frank's back story? I also tried to think of another character who that could have been, but unless it was one of the Others, I couldn't come up with anyone else

                            Frank is a little old to be with that lady ...

                            Though it is very interesting to think that the missing person could be connected to them as well.... but who.....

                              #12.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:03 PM EST
                              sweetpeas2ds

                              I also caught Kate's reaction to hearing Aaron's name. Almost a "why does that sound familiar/important" look on her face. I also noticed how both Kate and Jack reacted to seeing each other when she jacked the cab. Again, familiarity they can't place.

                              BlackRock Steve - I thought that too about he mechanic. At first I thought she knew him from somewhere but they never verified that. And at first I thought it was Frank! Especially since we're seeing all these connections happening off island.

                              • 2 votes
                              #12.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:19 PM EST
                              Pfemm

                              I thought that too about he mechanic. At first I thought she knew him from somewhere but they never verified that. And at first I thought it was Frank! Especially since we're seeing all these connections happening off island.

                              I thought it was Tom ... since he'd be alive in the LA timeline

                              • 1 vote
                              #12.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:45 PM EST
                              ranturn

                              How about Keamy? Now that would put an interesting twist on the connections between the characters in the sideways world.

                                #12.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:11 PM EST
                                TexanForObama

                                I do not think that the mechanic looked familiar, at least from Lost. I also do not think he is in any way related to the adoptive woman. Brentwood is a very nice neighborhood, and it appeared to me anyway that he was in a very 'low rent' district and seedy part of town. I think the reason he didn't strongly react to the gun, is because he had probably seen more than his fare share of such people and they just learn to keep their mouths shut. He may even have a record himself, and therefore isn't fazed by such actions. Kate probably knew exactly they type of place to go because she wasn't exactly an 'angel' before her fateful flight. (But it's Lost, so I could be wrong - haha!)

                                • 4 votes
                                #12.10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:38 PM EST
                                ranturn

                                I meant Keamy as the adoptive father, not the mechanic.

                                  #12.11 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:24 PM EST
                                  say what??

                                  Keamy didn't strike me as a family man/adopt a baby type dude, and although LA X is showing people in a different light, I just don't see Keamy carrying a diaper bag instead of a lethal weapon.

                                    #12.12 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:07 PM EST
                                    Reply
                                    Hopalong

                                    My one thought (thus far) is that maybe Jacob knew that his followers wouldn't be able to truly save Sayid, but it is somehow beneficial to Jacob that Sayid be brought back as "corrupted". Maybe Jacob knows that Sayid will now have some drastic effect on the coming confrontation since Sayid has been "claimed".

                                    • 3 votes
                                    Reply#13 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:32 AM EST
                                    BlackRock Steve

                                    Hopalong......My thought exactly since last week! Jacob is working a master plan, that included his own willing 'death' at the hands of Ben & Nemesis, and intentionally is willing to 'lose' Sayid in order to lure/decieve Nemesis into his own "loophole"!!

                                    • 5 votes
                                    #13.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:59 AM EST
                                    Herbcules74

                                    Just like in a good game of Chess. Somestimes you have to sacrifice a piece to make your plans work.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #13.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:53 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    JaxDad

                                    Ok - I could use some help with clarifying what exactly "claimed" Sayid. I know Dogen referred to the darkness in Sayid, but is that meant to indicate "Nemesis"? Currently, MIB/Nemesis is walking around as Locke, so if he's Nemesis, can Sayid be "claimed" by the darkness? Further, I got the sense last week that the ash perimeter Dogen set around the Temple was the only thing that could keep Nemesis out (hence, their unwillingness to let anyone go outside that boundary). So, if Sayid dies and is resurrected by being "claimed", wouldn't Nemesis not have access to Sayid as he is in the cover of the Temple? And since Jacob indicated it was important to save Sayid (knowing how it would be done), could that not lead someone to believe that Jacob needed Sayid to be drowned and die so Jacob could inhabit Sayid? That was definitely the impression I got from last week's episode, but this week, all of the sudden Sayid is not Jacob 2.0, but instead he's been claimed by what I can only assume is Nemesis.

                                    So, why are we trusting Dogen and Lennon again? Are Nemesis and the "darkness" two different entities? Is Nemesis omnipresent? Why try and poison Sayid instead of shooting him since Dogen certainly is in the position to do so? Is it necessary for Sayid to willingly accept the poision instead of dying at the hands of someone else? Is the poision meant to kill physical Sayid or the darkness?

                                    And since I'm asking way too many questions, clearly Kate and Jack had a major Deja Vu moment outside the airport...but why don't Kate and Claire have that since they have an alternate history that is intimately intwined?

                                    Cheers:
                                    Everything Miles said tonight ("Hurley's now assumed the role of leader. So...that's good")

                                    • 2 votes
                                    Reply#14 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:20 AM EST
                                    T Bourlon

                                    That's what I keep saying, why are we trusting Dogen and Lennon? Could they be WRONG about Sayid??? He sure isn't ACTING like a corrupted individual - or perhaps because he was sort of corrupted to begin with, the "darkness" gets cancelled like two negatives = positive? The only thing we can be sure of is, Dogen said Sayid had to "willingly" take the pill, which could be a cure for him but poison for anyone else. We also know these two "others" have been lying all along, so why trust them? That's kind of like Ben saying "We're the good guys," yeah right!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #14.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:54 AM EST
                                    blackwidow1

                                    Hey guys!

                                    Those of us with doubts about the true nature of these two forces (Jacob/Nemesis) are definitely in the minority. I'm glad there are a few more out here who think along the same lines as I do ... although I can definitely see the points for the mainstream train of thought. I'm working on a posting about my thoughts about this entire subject. Hope you'll read it and comment when I finally get it up.

                                    T Bourlon - As far as the pill being poison for anyone but Sayid, I had a different take on that. I thought the pill was meant to poison Sayid and kill him, not just kill the darkness growing inside him. However, Dogen knew that if he had told Jack it was poison, then Jack wouldn't have tried to persuade Sayid to take it. As it turned out, Jack was wary enough not to persuade Sayid, but Dogan knew that Jack wouldn’t even make the attempt if he knew it would kill his friend. I dunno.

                                    I do find the idea that Sayid had to take the pill willingly extremely interesting. That Dogen and Lennon could not force him to take the pill. Like … once you’ve been claimed by one side, you cannot be killed by someone who is claimed by the other side (ala Jacob/Nemesis, Ben/Widmore, etc). Although now that makes me wonder if perchance that only one “side” is claimed. The members of the other side “choose.”

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #14.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:19 PM EST
                                    kcjhawk

                                    I am still wary of believing that Sayid is inhabited by "the Darkness." The whole idea of him being docile and telling Jack he trusted him screams Jacob not Nemesis. Jacob was the one who kept talking about having a choice, etc. . .

                                    I think that Dogen knows the spring did not revive Sayid and assumes it is a bad guy inside him, because they don't know enough about Jacob to know what he could do. I think that if the ash didn't cause a reaction, then Sayid is not corrupted. Don't know about the other tortures, though.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #14.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:56 PM EST
                                    Pfemm

                                    The only thing we can be sure of is, Dogen said Sayid had to "willingly" take the pill, which could be a cure for him but poison for anyone else.

                                    This what I thought... Kind of like the principle in homeopathy. "let like, kill like"

                                    That Dogen and Lennon could not force him to take the pill

                                    however... what blackwidow1 says makes sense too.

                                    Both "sides" seem to be concerned with people choosing to do things Willingly ...

                                    Ben must willingly choose to kill jacob. sayid must willingly kill himself with the pill.

                                    the "rules" must prohibit directly influencing decisions. They can provide the options and "facts" but let the people talk themselves in or out of doing something.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #14.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:08 PM EST
                                    Reply
                                    NCL70506

                                    Thoughts on Kate, since this episode’s title is dedicated to her. I have actually been a supporter of Kate, but I think tonight has finally changed my mind.

                                    On the Island:

                                    It seemed like she was stalking Sawyer. She immediately volunteered to go look for Sawyer (after he just told her specifically not to look for him) and she was very confident that she would find him and bring him back. When asked why she was so sure, Kate stated she can be very convincing. When Jack offered to go with her, she said no because Sawyer would kill him. Sawyer had already told Kate that he would not kill Jack because he wants him to suffer here like the rest of them. So, she lied to Jack. It did not surprise me that she knocked out the two Others searching with her and Jin. That is typical Kate in action which is interesting to watch. (I do not remember this Aldo character, who seems to be very angry with Kate for not remembering him and for knocking him out in the past. Anyone remember him?) I did not really get the argument between Kate and Jin after that. I don’t like that she just left him behind and did not seem to care at all about his quest to find Sun. She was too concerned about her quest to find Sawyer. When Kate does find Sawyer, she just watches him. Creepy! It looks like we may finally have a resolution to this love triangle thing. Sawyer loved Juliet, and we could see that written all over his face in last week’s episode and in his actions in tonight’s episode. And I think Kate realized this as well, leading to her crying. Sawyer wants to be left alone, and I hope Kate can accept the fact that he does not want to be with her. I guess she is not as convincing as she thought she was.

                                    In the “timeline” with Claire:

                                    I thought Kate seemed to have some déjà vu moments, but not when she was actually with Claire. Kate and Jack shared a look at the airport exit, and Kate seemed moved when she found the picture of a pregnant Claire. But when Kate and Claire were together, they seemed like strangers. Their connection in this timeline seemed a little forced. I think the look that Kate got on her face when Claire screamed that “Aaron” had to be okay was simply because Kate was surprised that this woman had a name for a baby that she had planned to give up for adoption. On another note in this timeline, I found something creepy here too. Ethan!! I actually gasped when I saw his face. Ethan Goodwin tending to a pregnant Claire again. Those references to sticking her with needles were really obvious, only this time he did not want to do that to her. It was interesting that when Ethan was talking about the drugs and needles is when the monitor started blaring. One thing that Kate did in this episode that was somewhat admirable: she stayed with an obviously nervous Claire at the hospital even though she saw a cop car arrive.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #15 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:27 AM EST
                                    minklady

                                    Whatever happened happened. Right? There must be residual memories if Faraday was right.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #15.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:08 AM EST
                                    Anjillina

                                    I agree on the Kate thing. That's how I've always felt about her. While I like watching her do action stuff, I've never felt like she had a genuine feeling for anyone. I think she has always come across and completely self-absorbed. Yes, she was stalking Sawyer. And while she gave lip service to being sorry about Juliet, and while she scrambled around trying to save her so no one could question her sincerity later, I think she was thrilled that Juliet died and totally thought she'd get Sawyer right back. Even the whole going back to the island to find Claire thing - I think that's a sham. I think she went back to the island to find Sawyer and, if it wasn't too inconvenient for her, find Claire as well and send her back. But her first thought is always herself. She never seems to have grown out of her self-absorbtion (unlike Sawyer).

                                    • 5 votes
                                    #15.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:19 AM EST
                                    T Bourlon

                                    Goodwin? Did Ethan say his last name was Goodwin? Wasn't that the character that Juliet was having an affair with? I'm so confused, ya'lostme!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #15.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:57 AM EST
                                    BAjunkie

                                    No, it was Ethan Goodspeed.

                                      #15.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:09 AM EST
                                      Twinkle391

                                      Ethan is the son of Horace Goodspeed. I believe he said his name was Dr. Goodspeed but I was really feaking out that it was Ethan and so I'm not positive. Juliet was having an affair with Goodwin. So there you go.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:34 AM EST
                                      NCL70506

                                      Oops! I meant to type Ethan Goodspeed. That's what I get for thinking and typing at two o'clock in the morning!

                                      He was definitely the actor who played Ethan, he did introduce himself as Dr. Goodspeed, and he was Horace Goodspeed's son on the Island. I guess in this "timeline," Horace did not join the Dharma Initiative and Ethan never got involved with the Others and their obsession with pregnant women on the Island.

                                      Hi Anjillina; sounds like we are on the same page with thoughts on Kate.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #15.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:19 PM EST
                                      BAjunkie

                                      I guess in this "timeline," Horace did not join the Dharma Initiative

                                      Actually, that could have still happened. Since Ethan was born in 77, he could have been taken on the sub prior to the bomb going off.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:39 PM EST
                                      kcjhawk

                                      Again, we are all still ASSUMING the bomb did go off. We just saw a flash. The show's writers have stressed that we not assume the bomb is what made the island sink.

                                        #15.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:59 PM EST
                                        Pfemm

                                        I also thought that it was possible that the bomb didn't go off... but then what would have cause the deafening and ringing in the ears...

                                          #15.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:06 PM EST
                                          Superman2001

                                          Again, we are all still ASSUMING the bomb did go off. We just saw a flash. The show's writers have stressed that we not assume the bomb is what made the island sink.

                                          Well, something split time in half and created a sideways reality in which the Island is at the bottom of the ocean, 815 doesn't crash, and (apparently) the evacuation was successful, considering Ethan's presence in LA. Whether the bomb sunk the Island or not, it's implied that the bomb did go off and rupture the timeline.

                                          I guess in this "timeline," Horace did not join the Dharma Initiative

                                          Horace did join the DI. Remember, this timeline apparently starts in 1977, and Horace was a member of the DI at least as early as 1974 when Sawyer and Co. joined them, and even before that, because he recruited Roger Linus. It's more likely that Ethan and his mother left the Island in the evacuation in 1977, same as Miles and his mother.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.10 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:17 PM EST
                                          NCL70506

                                          Thanks, Superman. It makes sense that Horace could still have been there on the island with the DI and then send his wife and Ethan away via the evacuation. It's hard to keep track of who did what, when, and where! But I still love it!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.11 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:17 PM EST
                                          say what??

                                          It's more likely that Ethan and his mother left the Island in the evacuation in 1977, same as Miles and his mother.

                                          The evacuation you are referring to is the one in which the Losties wanted to detonate the bomb and Dr. Chang was strongly advised to carry it out (the time jump to 1977 timeline), but the original O815 crash in 2004 happened in the timeline that is the natural progression of time since "the incident", and we don't know if there was an evacuation with the original incident - from what we know the incident happened suddenly and with little warning. Horace is in both timelines. The difference seems to be the evacuation and who left the island because of it, leading to LA X sideways flash.

                                            #15.12 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:20 PM EST
                                            kcjhawk

                                            We still don't know all of the ramifications of the 2004 plane not crashing. Would the time travel still have happened, just without our people? Would Juliette have gone back to the 1970s and helped save Ethan when he was born? And, if Ethan and Miles WERE born on the island, is the hydrogen bomb explosion--which may or may not have actually destroyed everything--the event that caused future women to miscarry after that time?

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #15.13 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:57 PM EST
                                            Superman2001

                                            The evacuation you are referring to is the one in which the Losties wanted to detonate the bomb and Dr. Chang was strongly advised to carry it out (the time jump to 1977 timeline), but the original O815 crash in 2004 happened in the timeline that is the natural progression of time since "the incident", and we don't know if there was an evacuation with the original incident - from what we know the incident happened suddenly and with little warning. Horace is in both timelines. The difference seems to be the evacuation and who left the island because of it, leading to LA X sideways flash.

                                            We do know that there was an evacuation, for a couple of reasons: a) We've been told all along that "whatever happened, happened," and you can't change it. Faraday's final theory was that if you introduce a big enough event, you can change the past. He was right and wrong at the same time. They didn't change the past, they created a parallel reality, courtesy of branching universe theory, in which O815 never crashed. But that split didn't occur until 1977, three years after Horace is seen meeting Sawyer and Co. at Dharmaville, and several days after Horace's wife gives birth to Ethan on the Island. But assuming that you can't change the past, you can only create an alternate reality where you've affected the events of the past, the original incident is exactly what we see happening in 1977, which is why the Swan hatch is still built, O815 still crashes, the hatch still implodes, and so on. Time can still be represented by a straight line; it's just two parallel lines instead of one now.

                                            b) Miles and Charlotte both left the Island during the evacuation, and apparently, so did Ethan.

                                            Now, I'm assuming that Horace didn't leave the Island with his wife and son, but that's not necessarily so. All we know for certain is that Ethan left, and it would have presumably had to be before the detonation of Jughead, of course.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #15.14 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:18 PM EST
                                            chiclet024

                                            Anjilina~

                                            I agree with you on Kate's self-absorption. I almost felt during this episode like Kate had been so self-absorbed that she missed her own feelings for Sawyer, or never really let them surface. I felt like she was 'playing' the right role with respect to Juliette's death and then when she saw Sawyer with the ring and confide that he was going to ask Juliette to marry him, Kate's composure cracked and she could no longer run from her emotions.

                                            As Kate is a runner extraordinaire;), it fits to me that she has long been running from the emotions she felt for Jack and for Sawyer, never considering how they may or may not really work out. Even off the island, she seemed not to be aware of all of what she was feeling (I think that is why Kate-as-mother didn't work well for me--I had a hard time buying that she was enough in touch with her own feelings). Anyway, I feel like Kate was living in the moment with Jack and Sawyer -- running away from her own depths which would lead her to reconcile the impossibility of committing to both.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #15.15 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:14 PM EST
                                            keith.corrigan

                                            I believe Goodwin was the Other that Ana Lucia killed. I could be wrong, but I don't think that was Ethan's last name.

                                              #15.16 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:08 AM EST
                                              belle42

                                              Ethan Rom was his pseudonym with the Losties

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #15.17 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:29 AM EST
                                              Superman2001

                                              I believe Goodwin was the Other that Ana Lucia killed. I could be wrong, but I don't think that was Ethan's last name.

                                              Ethan's last name is Goodspeed. His father is Horace Goodspeed, the man who recruited Ben and his father to the DI.

                                                #15.18 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:16 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                SovalDeleted
                                                Jilie

                                                ok i just want to throw this out there -I think jacob is the bad guy (devil) and MIB is the good guy(god). That is why MIB said he was disappointed in everyone because they just didn' t just believe in him. When Jacob visted everyone he was like the devil with bad temptations.

                                                  Reply#17 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:27 AM EST
                                                  scrambledeggs

                                                  i agree, jilie. jacob seems like the puppetmaster and manipulator. that's usually not a nice trait to have!

                                                    #17.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:08 AM EST
                                                    Twinkle391

                                                    Hmmm I always thought Jacob was one of the good guys. But he did sort of cause Nadia's death, didn't he? I didn't see where he had any adverse impact on the others he touched off island.

                                                    I don't believe we've seen where MIB is much of a manipulator. Except, he did find the loophole, which could be sort of manipulation.

                                                    What I want to know is why MIB wants to go home? Would that be up to heaven with God, if we assume he is good? Or off the island? At first I thought it was off the island, but now, not so sure.

                                                    But then why would we see Sayid positioned as Christ? Because I'm pretty sure it's Jacob that has claimed his soul. Was this a red-Herring? Was that when he was pulled out or put in the water?

                                                    I thought this was mediocre. Considering what happened in the episodes "What did Kate do?" and "What Kate did" I thought we'd see some revelation about Kate last night. I was sort of looking forward to it. Boring.

                                                    All we saw was unbelieveable scenario between Claire and Kate and find out Sawyer really loved Juliet. Makes me really hate V. I think this means Sawyer's gonna die.

                                                    And I like Kate. Maybe the writers are really setting us up and there are lots of clues we've overlooked.

                                                    Right.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #17.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:43 AM EST
                                                    say what??

                                                    Maybe the writers are really setting us up and there are lots of clues we've overlooked.

                                                    This has to be the case. With limited time/episodes to bring the story to a conclusion they have to make every little thing matter. It's kind of like Jacob weaving his tapestry - he has to make the thread then weave it into a coherent pattern. The pattern becomes evident as he continues weaving and is totally revealed when he places the final thread. This episode added threads to the tapestry but the story is unfolding and the pattern is not yet clear.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #17.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:11 PM EST
                                                    ranturn

                                                    say what: I love the idea that Jacob is weaving a tapestry and the story is unfolding. (Lyrics from Carole King's "Tapestry" song keep going through my head!) That makes so much sense to me. And when you say "they have to make every little thing matter" - that is why even minor details could be important this season. I feel that I am watching each show with a magnifying glass and trying to pick up on clues that you wouldn't otherwise notice.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #17.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:09 PM EST
                                                    Twinkle391

                                                    I thought in the premiere that when Jack said to Locke, "Nothing is irreversible" that that is a huge clue. I dont' get it of course, but I think that's got to mean something.

                                                    So, what could be irreversible, you might ask? Don't know. Dead is dead and what happened, happened. That's all I know for sure! lol

                                                    Can't wait until next week!

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #17.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:48 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    KRCourter

                                                    Just a couple of commments reguarding the big questions

                                                    Before the "Incident" all of the women and children left the island on the sub. Ethan had been born in 1977 (delivered by Juliet if I remember correctly) so he left the Island just before it was blown up. He grew up in LA instead of on the island and became a doctor there.

                                                    Dōgen said that the infection reaches the heart and then you are lost. Claire had already been infected. The claiming was just completed the night that she left. That is why she left Aaron. The infection had reached her heart and she was lost

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    Reply#18 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:32 AM EST
                                                    minklady

                                                    Hello all,

                                                    I thought it was interesting that when Lennon came into Dogen's "lab", all he said was "he's alive", not "Sayid's alive", and Dogen knew at that point that there could be trouble in paradise. If they are so afraid of the "infection", why don't they put Sayed outside the ash line instead of keeping him inside?

                                                    When Kate was on her mission to find Sawyer, and the one guy (didn't get his name) kept almost revealing things about what's going on on the island, they were all talking about other people on the island, he made a point of saying "they were on the second plane" when Aldo told him to shutup. In last week's episode, the flight-attendant-turned-Dogen-follower made the comment about Kate/Hurley/Jack/Sayed being on "the first plane". I wonder what that is all about???

                                                    And any guesses about the symbolism of the baseball that Dogen was playing with?

                                                      #19 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:06 AM EST
                                                      pinkcap

                                                      There were two planes that crashed on the island - Oceanic and Ajira. The Others probable refer to them as plane 1 and 2 - I doubt if they're concerned with the name of the airline.

                                                      I too also wondered about the significance of the baseball. I do remember that Jack was a big Red Sox fan and I believe Ben showed him a news story about the Red Sox winning the World Series. I don't know if that has anything to do with it or if it's something else entirely.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #19.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:30 AM EST
                                                      Twinkle391

                                                      Related to the "infection" - does anyone remember the medicine that Ethan injected Claire with in the first season? Didn't they say it was so the baby and Claire wouldn't be infected? Could this be related?

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #19.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:47 AM EST
                                                      kcjhawk

                                                      Good catch, Twinkle391--did you notice the "wink, wink" remark Ethan made to Claire last night--"I don't want to stick you with any needles if I don't have to." (or something to that effect.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #19.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:05 PM EST
                                                      kcjhawk

                                                      I still can't wrap my mind around Cindy the flight attendant still being on the island in 2007 if the original plane did not ever crash. To me, the only Losties that should be on the island would be the ones who came back on the Ajira flight. So if the bomb worked, why would Jin and Sawyer be there either? They would never have been there in the first place, right?

                                                        #19.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:05 PM EST
                                                        Superman2001

                                                        kcjhawk,

                                                        Are you familiar with "branching universe theory"?

                                                          #19.5 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:20 PM EST
                                                          kcjhawk

                                                          No, I have already stated that I am both scientifically and sci-fi-entifically challenged, though I do think the guys on Stargate are hot. I may, however, recognize the theory, just not by name, if someone here has talked about it.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #19.6 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:35 PM EST
                                                          Superman2001

                                                          Okay, here's my rudimentary explanation. I'm not a physicist. I've learned most of this from movies, so it's likely to be flawed, but here's how I understand it. Hopefully you'll look at this time stuff differently from now on.

                                                          Branching universe theory holds that, if an event of particular significance is introduced in the stream of time, it doesn't change the past (or the future, depending on what time you are from); it creates a parallel stream of time in which the event has altered the future, but the original stream of time still exists, so now you have two realities, with two Oceanic 815 flights, one fated to crash, one that lands safely in LA.

                                                          Think of time as a river. Imagine that walking upstream is equatable to traveling to the past. Your goal is to change some future event by altering the course of time, or diverting the river to travel in a different direction. So you introduce some impediment to the river, and it's not just a pebble or two, you'd have to build a friggin' wall that changes the direction of the flow; it would have to be a really significant impediment (like detonating a hydrogen bomb, not shooting a kid). If you just throw some rocks in the way, the water will go around the rocks and eventually continue on the same path it was on to begin with.

                                                          Branching universe theory says that your impediment, however significant, essentially creates a copy of the river that runs parallel to the original one, starting from when you took your action, and the change that you introduced affects the stream of time. HOWEVER, you still have the original river/stream of time, in which time course corrects and things continue just as they would have.

                                                          Branching universe theory is significant because it defies the idea that you can't change the past, while at the same time reinforcing it. You can't "undo" what you've already done; you can only give time a second chance. An example that most people are familiar with would be Back to the Future II. Imagine that, when Doc and Marty went to the altered 1985 in which conditions were bad, they were actually in 1985 2.0. 1985 1.0 still existed as if nothing had happened, but they were experiencing the effects of their actions which altered the course of time.

                                                          Where Back to the Future breaks from branching universe theory is in the idea that you would actually recognize the effects of your actions in time. In reality, you'd never know that an alternate reality had been created, just like our Lostees don't know that they are living another life based on O815 never having crashed.

                                                          So, from 1977 onward, everything you see in what the producers are calling these "sideways flashes" is happening in Reality 2.0, while life back on the Island is Reality 1.0. So wondering about Cindy being on the Island is ignoring the fact that O815 did crash, and there's nothing that can change that. But at the same time, there is an alternate reality, 2.0, in which O815 did NOT crash, because the Swan hatch was never built after the detonation of Jughead in 1977. (That last part is an assumption by me that has been pointed out by many already. I'm assuming that Jughead was the catalyst that caused the time split.) So Cindy is on the Island in 1.0, but lands safely in 2.0, along with everyone else.

                                                          Hope that's not too confusing. ;)

                                                          • 5 votes
                                                          #19.7 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:51 PM EST
                                                          Twinkle391

                                                          kcjhawk - yeah the "infection" has some meaning that's eluding me. And wow, I didn't think anything about the flight attendant being there in 2007 at the temple. If we are to believe that "what happened, happened" then flight 815 had to have crashed, otherwise, she wouldn't be there. Just a thought.

                                                          I think Jin and Sawyer did the time travelling thing maybe because 1) they did it before with Daniel, et al. and 2) because they were there when the bomb "went off" which I'm not convinced it did. Almost but not quite. I'm leaving open my options!

                                                            #19.8 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:52 PM EST
                                                            Shaun Guidolin

                                                            Well put Superman2001 ...

                                                            To maybe a little more simply:

                                                            Everything we've seen on the show has actually happened still.

                                                            The plane did crash .. and the plane didn't crash.

                                                            They are independent of each other. In essence a "twin" of everyone that was effected in some way was created the day the bomb went off... which in some reality could mean everyone in the world is running on 2 simultaneous time-lines

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #19.9 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:35 PM EST
                                                            pinkcap

                                                            kcjhawk-

                                                            There are two worlds now. The original one which kept moving when Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, and Miles went back and the one where the past was changed through the detonation. In the original world, the Others did not travel back in time. If you remember when they were moving through time, they never crossed paths with the present day Others, only the ones in the time they traveled to. The white flash of light brought Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Jin, Miles, and Sayid back to the present time where everyone's life has gone on without them. Cindy and the children were kidnapped by the Others when they first crashed (The Other 48 Days). They are obviously one of them now (or were they always one of them?).

                                                            The sideways world is where the bomb detonated and everything was changed. Cindy is on the plane and landed in LA.

                                                            Superman - that was a great way of explaining the two worlds!

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #19.10 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:03 AM EST
                                                            kcjhawk

                                                            Right-but the writers have said that the storyline is NOT parallel universes. And, if the bomb worked and everyone didn't crash the first time, then Cindy could have still been there, on the island, because obviously the Losties got back there in some other way--as it is their fate or destiny, but she is acting as if she has been there since the original crash.

                                                              #19.11 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:26 AM EST
                                                              Superman2001

                                                              The writers also said we wouldn't find out specifics about the smoke monster, and we weren't going to get any more information about the numbers. The writers sometimes just lie to throw us off track, and sometimes they present information in a way that sends us running in different directions.

                                                              Now, it's entirely possible that it's not a parallel universe. This could be someone's dream sequence of how things would have happened had the Island been at the bottom of the ocean, but clearly things have been different for a while now, because Desmond is on the plane, not on the Island. It certainly looks like a parallel universe. I think the writers just don't like using that term, because there's some technicality that they've found that allows them to say it's not a parallel universe.

                                                              As for the bomb working, you have to remember that the plane and everyone on it still crashed. As I said, they didn't change the past, they created a copy of it in which the Island is at the bottom of the ocean and O815 doesn't crash. In 1.0, the Island did crash, Cindy did join the Others, and she's been there since 2004, so she's aware of the Ajira flight that crashed in 2007. She has been there since the original crash. None of that has changed.

                                                                #19.12 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST
                                                                kcjhawk

                                                                So LOST is like Bizarro Superman--only sideways sort of. . . and with some but not all people having differences in the parallel universe. LOL! I guess my main problem with this is that if they are parallel or alternate, then (and I realize I don't understand the complexities of the theory) one universe must collapse and one universe survive. The writers are saying the universes ultimately converge for a conclusion. That's why I don't think they are two separate versions of the same reality.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #19.13 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:25 PM EST
                                                                Superman2001

                                                                Everyone whose life was affected by the Incident has certain changes in their lives now, and in particular, the O815 passengers have a huge difference in common: they never crash on the Island. You have to keep 1977 in mind. Everything that happened prior to the Incident in 1977 is the same as it was before.

                                                                One doesn't have to collapse just because it's alternate, or whatever term fits best. They run alongside one another, and perhaps they eventually become congruent and merge, like a river that's split might join back up a few miles downstream. Maybe the universe course corrects eventually and the need for parallel realities goes way once all the inconsistencies are fixed. But for now, the stream is separated, and we have two separate timelines in play.

                                                                  #19.14 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:51 PM EST
                                                                  DerryGirl

                                                                  I believe that the writers did not want to use the term ALTERNATE reality because that might imply that only ONE reality is real. I don't think they had a problem with the term parallel - I think:-)

                                                                    #19.15 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Herbcules74

                                                                    Good Morning Lost fans,

                                                                    I usually like to get on right after the show to share my thoughts but I was really under the weather last night and drugged up on cold medicine. I'll probably have to rewatch this episode to make sure i didn't miss anything. To the questions:

                                                                  • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him?
                                                                  • I would say No. They really were trying to save him but the water not being clear made it risky. That is why they believe he is now "infected"

                                                                  • How did Sayid's wound heal?
                                                                  • The power of whatever was in the water, either Jacob or the Nemesis.

                                                                  • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture?
                                                                  • My guess is something to help carry the electrical charge the ran through him. Maybe to up the voltage and make it more painful.

                                                                  • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming?
                                                                  • Maybe a normal person would have lost consciousness with that level of pain inflicted. He had to be infected to survive.

                                                                  • What was inside Sawyer's box?
                                                                  • I think that was obviously the engagement ring.

                                                                  • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do?
                                                                  • I think back to when smokey took Rousseau's team into the temple. Maybe he put them into the spring and "changed" or "claimed" them. She said when they came back to her they were changed. As to what they are "changed" into I have no idea. Maybe disciples of the Nemesis?

                                                                  • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor?
                                                                  • In 1977 Miles got Chang to evacuate all the civilians off the Island. This probably included Horace's wife and Ethan. I assume when they got back to the real world that Ethan had a normal childhood and grew up to become a doctor.

                                                                  • How was Claire "claimed"?
                                                                  • When she disappeared with Christian he may have taken her to the temple. This is an interesting question. I will elaborate later.

                                                                  • If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him?
                                                                  • This may not have changed Jacob's intention. They just may not have gotten him to the water in time. But then again if the water being dark had anything to do with Jacob's dying then if Jacob knew that he would be dead when they got Sayid to the temple then he also would have known the water would be dark when they got him there. This would bring up a whole new set of questions.

                                                                    Cheers: We can see just how much Sawyer was in love with Juliet so I think the chances of him getting over it and back in to the love triangle with Jack and Kate are very slim.

                                                                    Thoughts:

                                                                    Did anyone else get a feeling that Dogan may have been one of the slaves on the Black Rock. At first I thought he may have been the captain but at that time in history it is more likely he was a slave. He is probably like Richard and a firm follower of Richard. This makes me think that when anyone is put in the spring when it is clear they become "infected" with part of Jacob, and inversely when the spring is dark they become "infected" with Nemesis. Like some of our fellow posters here I too am staring to have questions on who is the real "good guy" and who is the real "evil guy". Just because one is wearing white and one is wearing black doesn't really mean anything. Also we know how the producers love to mislead us.

                                                                    Getting back to Claire, the way Dogan spoke of the "darkness" infecting Jack's Sister we have to assume that it was the same darkness that has infected Sayid. If that is the case then "Christian" or the likeness of Christian was probably the Nemesis. Further proof of this would be "Christian" helping Locke to get off the Island. For Me this validates that theory. In my mind you can almost see how Jacob and Nemesis are competing for an individuals allegiance so they can be used as pawns in this game. I don't know if any of this is making sense or if I should just pop some more advil cold and flu medicine....lol. More to come later.

                                                                    Herb

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    Reply#20 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:11 AM EST
                                                                    say what??

                                                                    They just may not have gotten him to the water in time.

                                                                    I wondered about the delay in getting Sayid to the temple. After Jacob appeared to Hurley and told him the only way to save Sayid was to take him to the temple, instead of going straight there they went to the Swan to help get Juliet out. They went to the temple only after Jack told him he couldn't do anything and after Sawyer buried Juliet and carried him to the temple on a stretcher, so when they got there Sayid's condition was probably worse than it would have been.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #20.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:11 AM EST
                                                                    Pfemm

                                                                    I'm not sure how quick I would be to follow the advice of a dead dude who gave me a guitar case before I landed on a magical island for the second time. :)

                                                                    But you are right ... It took them forever to get him to the temple...

                                                                      #20.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:54 PM EST
                                                                      kcjhawk

                                                                      Hmmm. . .Nemesis wanted Locke off the island because he was a problem for him, so Christian helped Locke leave. However, once Locke died, Nemesis could use him, so he wanted him to come back. Just not alive.

                                                                        #20.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:07 PM EST
                                                                        lostinventura

                                                                        I'm so glad to read that others don't view Jacob/Nemesis as just good/evil. the characters in this show exemplify that it's not about good/evil. when we meet them on the island after the crash, they appear to be "blank slates" with histories to be filled in through flashback. through flashbacks we learn some of them are fatally ill, pitiful, dubious (at best) and out and out killers & torturers. Sayid would arguably be evil, but he clealry has redemption value, just like everyone else on the island. but it appears that, on the show, in order to be redeemed (or believe in redemption), you must have faith (something jack has yet to find, erego no redemption yet). others, like Sawyer, only believe what they see--i.e have no faith. and Locke being the obvious personification of blind, obedient faith (dead john, not un-Locke). having faith or not, is not the same as being good or evil. if utlimately the dichotomy is between free will and destiny, good and evil should play no part. and really could free will have been shoved down our throats anymore than Dogen's insistence that Sayid must choose to take the pillf rom Jack.

                                                                        also, as in my post re: last week's episode, I can't imagine the writers/directors/producers would be so literal with thier interpretation of good/evil, so as to have Jacob in white and Nemesis in black. rather, i think it would be a typical red herring.

                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                        #20.4 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:14 PM EST
                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                        You know that line they always say on medical shows? If you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras. Maybe black/white is good/evil and we are all so used to thinking about things that we are thinking too much.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #20.5 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:29 AM EST
                                                                        lostinventura

                                                                        kcjhawk, i totally agree with the if you hear hoofbeats phrase. and in my career, i often adhere to occam's razor. but when it comes to lost, i actually think the exact opposite. i.e. pretty sure no one expects a polar bear to jump out at them in the middle of the jungle.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #20.6 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:30 PM EST
                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                        Only Al Gore! LOL

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #20.7 - Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:26 PM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        Anjillina

                                                                        Reason I am still incredibly confused - everyone keeps saying or implying that the scenes in LA (where the plane didn't crash) are not a timeline or alternate universe but are some sort of narrative device showing how things could have been. But if that's the case, then how does "residual memory" and "deja vu" and all that come into play? ARGH!! If it's a device/story, then they've never met, so there's nothing to be residual or deja vu-y.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        Reply#21 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:21 AM EST
                                                                        BAjunkie

                                                                        I'm not convinced that it's a narrative. The title actually implies otherwise. LA X is a play on a Marvel comic book called Earth X, in which Earth has an alternate universe in which all inhabitants are mutants. I think this implies that there is an alternate timeline, and they are going to merge, which has actually been semi confirmed by the writers in an interview they gave just after the first show aired.

                                                                          #21.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:30 AM EST
                                                                          mrosebud42

                                                                          It's not an alternative. It's what happened on the first flight. The crash happens later and they all end up on the island. Have faith.....

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #21.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:38 PM EST
                                                                          Pfemm

                                                                          I don't think it's a narrative either... I think that the two timelines will definitely converge as the story progresses...

                                                                          I think they already have... That scene when Juliet dies and how she knows it worked...

                                                                          If the separation between the two timelines is really thin... maybe that's why the LA characters have that deja vuie feeling... like they have a sense of the connections between the island characters...

                                                                          What if as they die that separation gets thinner and thinner...

                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #21.3 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          say what??

                                                                          Here are a couple thoughts before I dive into Steve’s questions – still have to think about things!

                                                                          The first thing I noticed is that Sayid’s wound has changed location. To make sure I watched last week’s previews again and it clearly shows he was shot on the right side, but when Jack looks at Sayid’s almost healed wound it is on the left side.

                                                                          I like blackwidow1’s suggestion in #9 that the ash is made from banyan trees. I always wondered why banyan trees provided protection from Smokey and did a little research which I posted in Sabastian Palpatine’s May 2009 article “Deep Thoughts: Rewatching Seasons 1-4”:

                                                                          It was considered a wish fulfilling divine tree; worshipping it could bring the dead back to life; the roots, which hang down and act as props over an ever widening circle, represent eternal life and are regarded as a symbol of a long life; and in Philippine mythology it is said to be home to a variety of spirits and demon-like creatures and "things not like us".

                                                                          When I saw Dogen’s greenhouse I thought maybe he put the ash in the soil so it would become part of the plants and thought maybe something like that was done to the banyan trees – the reverse of blackwidow1’s idea – so the banyan trees would take in the ash which gave protection. If Dogen used the "ashed" plants to make the pill is that what made it poison? And what's in that tea they're always drinking??

                                                                          Sayid’s “torture” reminded me of what Rousseau did to him.

                                                                          “Claimed” Claire reminded me of both Rousseau and young Eloise. Dogen said the infection can spread. If Rousseau was infected, could she have infected Claire and in the process transferred her survival skills? It is like Rousseau lives on in Claire, mirroring her lifestyle and survival abilities. Aldo or Justin said Rousseau has been dead a few years – was Dogen involved in her death to keep the infection from spreading, but did it too late to save Claire?

                                                                          After Hurley told Dogen Jacob was dead, Dogen and Lennon turned their attention to putting up the defenses against Smokey/Nemesis and did not seem concerned about Sayid’s body or the possibility of him coming back to life, let alone infected. They didn’t realize they had a problem until he was “resurrected.” It is interesting that Dogen has a diagnostic test procedure in place, indicating Sayid is not the first test subject. They were surprised the spring water was not clear so previous tests could not have been triggered by the condition of the water. Was Rousseau a previous test subject and if so, why did they suspect her? Who else have they tested?

                                                                          I’ll take a stab at the “what was in Sawyer’s box” question. I think it was mementos of his parents including his mother’s wedding ring which he was going to use as Juliet’s wedding ring. He tragically lost his parents and now he has tragically lost Juliet. The ring represented his hope to finally find happiness with Juliet but now everything he held dear is gone – so he throws the ring, and his hope for happiness, into the water. I wonder why he hid the box under the floorboards – he had to work awfully hard to get it out.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          Reply#22 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:30 AM EST
                                                                          littlemama

                                                                          excellent comments...really like the banyan tree/ash thoughts...and the tea...never considered that....

                                                                          wasn't rousseau shot when the mercenaries were still lingering? correct me if i'm forgetting something....

                                                                          i also noticed the wound moved and his torture reminded me of rousseau..hmmm

                                                                            #22.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:08 AM EST
                                                                            say what??

                                                                            You're right about Rousseau. She was with Alex and Karl and Karl was killed too.

                                                                              #22.2 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:20 AM EST
                                                                              DerryGirl

                                                                              Say What - The first thing I noticed is that Sayid’s wound has changed location. To make sure I watched last week’s previews again and it clearly shows he was shot on the right side, but when Jack looks at Sayid’s almost healed wound it is on the left side. Didn't we think that the same thing happened when Ben was shot by Sayid, I vaguely remember a similar discussion at the time. But I could be wrong.

                                                                              I like the banyan tree/ash idea, makes sense.

                                                                              Regarding the Rousseau thing - I posted a little earlier concerning the apparent similarities with Claire and Rousseau. Rousseau giving up her baby to Ben because she believed she had been infected by the smoke monster like her companions and boyfriend. It seems like Claire's situation may have been the same, giving up her baby for his own good because she knew she was infected. Perhaps she actually spent time with Rousseau - she had clearly learned booby trapping and the dress code for crazy forest woman with a gun.

                                                                                #22.3 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:36 PM EST
                                                                                Superman2001

                                                                                Rousseau didn't give Alex up. She was taken from her, at gunpoint, and then her life was threatened. Wasn't willing at all, and she spent the rest of her life hoping to be reunited with her daughter.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #22.4 - Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:49 PM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Lost_n_Texas

                                                                                Morning all, I'm not going to ass too much more from what everyone has posted so far....except for one item..

                                                                                Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him? - I'm still not lock (no pun intended) step with everyone else on who is on the good/bad side. Do the "followers" of Jacob at the Temple do so out of admiration/respect/devotion, or out of fear/lack of choice. So the answer to this question is: No, they were "obeying" their instructions by their "master" Jacob.

                                                                                How did Sayid's wound heal? I don't believe the wounds healed. However I also don't believe this is Sayid anymore.

                                                                                What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture? I'm not going with Ash, I'm saying an as yet unseen substance.

                                                                                How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming? First off, hello!!! Why has no one commented that Sayid is former Republican Guard, he tortured for a LIVING. He's been smacked around on the island even, and at NO time, in ALL the times we've seen him in the present/past has he ever whined like a 3rd year old girl practically begging his torture to stop. Come on guys/girls that is the only piece of evidence that we need that Sayid is no more.

                                                                                What was inside Sawyer's box? I agree, this was his special box of trinkets. Likely momentos he had collected, and yes items endeared to him of Juliette.

                                                                                What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do? I'd ponder that is slowly replaces the original inhabitant for one side or another. I do however feel claiming can be done on both sides, and that we can't rule out the supposed Nemesis claimed might not be evil.

                                                                                What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor? Who cares.

                                                                                How was Claire "claimed"? She went around the luggage carousel a few dozen times until someone finally took pity on her.

                                                                                If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him? Who said Jacob is a good guy.

                                                                                By the way Say What, if that is true, what a nice clue...

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                Reply#23 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:50 AM EST
                                                                                Pinky Swear

                                                                                I totally agree with you on the Sayid test thing Lost_n_Texas. It was a test of character and he failed big time.

                                                                                  #23.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:26 AM EST
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  littlemama

                                                                                  Good morning!! I have to say, I did not like this episode...Kate bores me...but i did like the reveal on the darkness...

                                                                                  A few thoughts before i answer the questions - I could have sworn Sayid's wound was on the other side of his torso....And his torture scene reminded me of when he was captured by Rousseau....The Claire/Kate scenes in LA seemed rushed ... I liked the interaction with Ethan..i laughed out loud at him telling claire he didn't want to stick her with needles or drugs if he didn't have too..lol...

                                                                                  I was a little moved by the Sawyer/Kate scene on the dock...I think Kate truly felt sorry for Sawyer and blames herself for his lost happiness...

                                                                                  • Did Dogen and Lennon intentionally try to kill Sayid by drowning him? No....I think they were following Jacob's orders
                                                                                  • How did Sayid's wound heal? i agree that the "darkness" had a role in this...if he was really healed, the wound would be completely gone
                                                                                  • What was the powder poured over Sayid during his torture? i immediately thought it was the ash..
                                                                                  • How did torturing Sayid the "test" for his claiming? his reactions to the torture would tell them which side he was one
                                                                                  • What was inside Sawyer's box? the ring...or some momento from his parents
                                                                                  • What exactly does the corruption ("claiming") do? sucks the life out of a person...they become a hollow shell willing to do the MIBs bidding
                                                                                  • What part of the altered timeline made Ethan a kindly L.A. doctor? well, in order for him to be alive horace and amy had to be married so amy's first hubby was still killed (do i have that right?)....he was evacuated from the island either b/c of the incident or for some unknown reason
                                                                                  • How was Claire "claimed"? no clue on this one...i didn't think she was dead when she left aaron. if that's the case, then she willing went to the dark side...that would be a first b/c we've only seen dead people be used for that purpose....really no clue here
                                                                                  • If Sayid is "claimed," how does that impact Jacob's note that it was necessary to save him? it's all a part of jacob's plan...he can use Sayid's claiming for someone else's purpose (like Jack's redemption)....
                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  Reply#24 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:00 AM EST
                                                                                  MEL2376

                                                                                  Ethan being at the hospital may not be that big a deviatiin - he did spend time off island in previous flashbacks. ("Not in Portland")

                                                                                    #24.1 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:53 AM EST
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    scrambledeggs

                                                                                    Did anyone notice that when Dr. Ethan and Claire were discussing whether to medically delay her labor until closer to her expected due date, when she voiced her decision to accept the medical intervention because she "wasn't ready" yet, that's when the baby's monitor started blaring and the EGK flatlined, causing Ethan to use the sonogram to show her that the baby's ok. (his reasoning was the baby changed it's position, not that the baby's heart stopped).

                                                                                      Reply#25 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:02 AM EST
                                                                                      Lost_n_Texas

                                                                                      I caught that scrambled, but my reasoning is that in this reality, like the original reality she is meant to keep Aaron. If she had given birth now she'd likely give it up, but the longer to term she goes the more likely she'll choose to keep it. The child moving and drama that went with it was meaningless time waster to fill a so-so episode. I guess I'm getting ADD because I'm ready for more solid reveals. Seems the writers are choosing to drag major reveals out later in the season, and instead posing more questions to us...which seems odd. It's unlikely LOST is developing a new audience at this point, it is what is is...so why the new characters, new questions....alas..

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      Reply#26 - Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:07 AM EST
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