Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Steve Watts's column >>

STEVE WATTS

Electronic Aficionado
Articles Posted: 322  Links Seeded: 1162
Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

LOST: Jacob's List Revealed in The Substitute

Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:22 PM EST
By Steve Watts

Live Poll

What did you think of tonight's episode?

View Results
  • 83591
    Fantastic
    63%
  • 83592
    Pretty good
    31%
  • 83593
    Mediocre
    5%
  • 83594
    Terrible
    0%

VoteTotal Votes: 334

Advertise | AdChoices

Locke accepts his handicapped condition as Nemesis tempts Sawyer to join his cause, and reveals new truths along the way about the nature of the infamous lists.

ABC Preview:

Locke goes in search of help to further his cause

Note: "Lost in the Vines" is made for discussion of the series "Lost" on ABC. As such, here be spoilers! We talk frankly about the events of the night, speculate about future events, and so on. Read no further if you don't want spoilers.

The Big Reveal: Jacob's lists were an effort to find the next protector of the Island.

Summary

A van pulls into a suburban neighborhood, and Locke lowers the wheelchair ramp to exit it. It gets stuck halfway, and he attempts to wheel off of the ramp anyway, but falls off and onto the ground. The sprinklers in the lawn come on and start to soak him, and Helen opens the door and finds him. She turns off the sprinklers and helps him inside.

Locke takes a bath as Helen talks on the phone about a wedding. She hangs up the call and suggests to Locke that they have a smaller wedding with immediate family. He says she deserves better and picks out a color swatch. She calls him sweet and they kiss. She asks how his conference was, and he tells her it was boring. She finds Jack's card and asks who he is, and Locke explains how they met. Helen suggests he call, and Locke says he was just being polite. She asks what the odds are of finding a spinal surgeon, and says maybe it's destiny. He says, maybe it is.

The Smoke Monster traverses through the woods, stopping momentarily by a Dharma house. It spots a machete, and turns back into Locke-Nemesis, picking it up and cutting loose a trap bag with Richard inside. Nemesis tells Richard it's time to talk.

----------------

Locke wheels through his office and to his cubicle. Randy tells him he got a nice tan in Australia, and asks how the conference was. Locke says he didn't learn anything but made some good contacts. Randy says that Ken Fisher told him he had to cancel his lunch. Locke says he had some jetlag, and Randy challenges him, claiming he didn't go to any events at the conference at all. Locke apologizes and asks to have the week as his vacation. Randy says his vacation is in October for his wedding. Locke apologizes again, saying where he was is personal, but Randy fires him.

Nemesis apologizes for hitting Richard. Richard asks what he wants, and Nemesis says he wants him to come with him. Richard asks why he looks like Locke, and Nemesis explains that he'd get him access to Jacob, because he's a candidate, or at least was one. Richard asks what he means, and Nemesis balks. He asks if Jacob never told him why, and explains that he would have treated Richard with respect. Nemesis offers to tell him everything if Richard will come with him. Richard refuses, and Nemesis says that people seldom get a second chance. Richard says he's not going anywhere with him. Nemesis starts to respond, but sees a small child bloodied in the distance. Richard looks and it's gone. Nemesis leaves, saying he'll see Richard sooner than he thinks.

Ben walks into the statue, finding Ilana crying. He asks if he's interrupting, and Ilana says she wants to know what happened to the other men. Ben says there's a chance she won't believe him, and she tells him to try her. Ben says that "Locke" turned to a pillar of black smoke and killed them. He claims Locke killed Jacob too, and Ilana asks why there's no body. Ben says he kicked Jacob into the fire and he burned away. Ilana gathers the ash from the fire into a pouch. Ben asks why he took Richard into the jungle, and Ilana says he's recruiting.

Nemesis walks into the Dharma village, to a house with music blaring. He looks around, and walks to the bedroom where he finds Sawyer drinking. He greets him, and Sawyer says he thought he was dead. Nemesis says, he is.

----------------

Sawyer pours a drink and hands it to Nemesis. He makes a toast, to being dead, and Nemesis remarks that Sawyer is taking this extremely well. Sawyer says he doesn't care if he's dead or time-traveling or the ghost of Christmas past. He says all he cares about is the whiskey, so to get out of his house. Nemesis says this isn't his house, he just lived here for a while. Sawyer asks who he is, because he's not John Locke. Sawyer explains that Locke was scared even when he pretended he wasn't. But Nemesis, he says, isn't scared. Nemesis asks, what if he's the person who can answer the most important question in the world: why are you on this Island? Sawyer says it's because the plane crashed, the raft blew up, and the chopper was one too heavy. Nemesis says that's not why he's here, and if he comes with him he can prove it. Sawyer says he better listen then.

Locke carries his office things out to his van. A Hum-V is parked too close, so he lowers his ramp, but it stops short of scratching it. Locke hits the hummer until the alarm goes off, and Hurley comes out to ask what he's doing. Locke asks if he's ever parked before, and Hurley points out that there was a handicap spot next to it. Locke says he can park wherever he wants, and he should stay in the lines. Hurley explains that they were supposed to reserve a spot, and explains that he owns the company. Locke says he just got fired, and Hurley calls Randy a huge douche. Hurley gives Locke a number and tells him to call it, and instructs him to say that Hugo told them to help him find a new job. He tells him to keep his chin up.

Frank sits down with Sun near Locke's body. Ilana asks where everybody is, and Sun explains that they went to the Temple. Ilana says they should go there too. Sun asks if she's alright, and Ilana says she's fine. She suggests going, and Sun asks what makes her think she's going with her. Ilana says, because she wants to find Jin, and he's at the Temple. They start to leave, and Sun asks about Locke, saying they should bury him.

Nemesis asks what Sawyer was doing, he says drinking. He asks where his friends were, and Sawyer tells him about the Temple. Tired of the questions, Sawyer suggests they stop talking. The child appears again, and Sawyer asks who he is. Sawyer tells him that he can see him, and Nemesis chases after the boy. Nemesis falls, and the boy says that he knows the rules: he can't kill him. Nemesis shouts not to tell him what he can't do.

----------------

Sawyer searches the jungle, calling out for Locke. He says whoever he is, he has 20 seconds before he's out of here. Richard comes out of the jungle, asking where he is. Sawyer says he ran off, and Richard, panicked, tells him they have to go to the Temple. Sawyer says Nemesis has answers, and Richard says Sawyer doesn't understand: he wants everyone dead, everyone he cares about. Nemesis comes back and asks who he was talking to. Sawyer says nobody, and asks if he caught up with the kid. Nemesis asks, what kid? Sawyer says they should get on with it.

A woman, Lynn, asks what kind of animal Locke would describe himself as. He doesn't understand, but she presses on, asking if he would describe himself as a people person. He gives a quizzical look and asks to speak to her supervisor. Lynn says she'll go get her, and Rose enters introducing herself as the office supervisor. She asks what she can do, and Locke says she can save the questions about what kind of animal he is and place himself in a job. He suggests a site coordinator, and she says it isn't a good match. He talks about his experience, but she says experience isn't the issue. He mentions Hurley, and she says that's her boss so if he wants it, she can make it happen. But if she sends him there, the day after he'll be back in her office. She tells him they should be a little more realistic. He asks what she knows about being realistic, and she reveals that she has terminal cancer. She says she had a hard time accepting it, but she got past the denial part and got back to living whatever life she has left. So, she suggests, how about finding a job you can do.

Sawyer asks Nemesis if he reads books, he says who doesn't. Sawyer talks about Of Mice and Men, and Nemesis says no, that was a little after his time. Sawyer talks about George and Lenny, and how George killed Lenny out in the woods. Nemesis says that doesn't sound like a happy ending. Sawyer cocks and points his gun, and says "it ain't." Nemesis asks what's on his mind, and Sawyer says he wonders what would happen if he put a bullet in his head. Nemesis says, why don't we find out? Sawyer asks what he is. Nemesis says, what he is, is trapped. He says he's been trapped so long he doesn't remember what it feels like to be free. He says before he was trapped he was a man just like Sawyer. Sawyer says he doesn't believe it, but Nemesis says it's the truth. Nemesis says he knows what it's like to experience human emotions and lose someone he loves. Nemesis says if he wants to shoot him, go ahead, but he's so close it would be a shame to turn back now. Nemesis turns and walks away, and Sawyer lowers his gun.

----------------

Frank, Sun, Ilana and Ben walk along the beach, carrying Locke. Ben asks why they brought it to the statue, and Ilana says they needed to see the face of the enemy. Ben asks what's to keep him from changing his face, and Ilana says he can't anymore. He's stuck this way. They come to a grave site and start digging a grave for Locke. They put Locke into the grave, and Ilana asks if anyone wants to say anything. She asks, didn't any of you know him? Ben steps forward, saying he knew him. He says John Locke was a believer, a man of faith. He says Locke was a much better man than he will ever be. He says he's very sorry he murdered him. Ben walks away, and Frank says it's the weirdest funeral he's ever been to.

Locke wakes up and puts his clothes on. He finds Jack's card and dials the number. A receptionist answers, and he hesitates, then hangs up. Helen asks who it was on the phone, and he says it was no one. She presses him, and he admits he was calling Dr. Shepard. Helen asks when he's going to see him. Locke says he's not going to see him, and reveals that he got fired. A doorbell rings, and Helen goes to answer it.

Locke goes to the living room, hearing Helen sign for his lost luggage. Helen wheels in the suitcase and asks how he got fired. Locke says he lied to Randy, and didn't go to the conference in Sydney. He tells her to open the suitcase. She does and she finds his collection of knives. She asks what they're for, and he tells her they were for his walkabout. He says it was supposed to be an adventure in the outback, but they wouldn't let him go. He says he shouted at them that they couldn't tell him what he can't do, but they were right. He says he's sick of imagining what his life could be out of the chair, because it's not going to happen. If she needs him to see more doctors, he doesn't blame her, but he doesn't want her to spend her life waiting for a miracle because there's no such thing. She tells him there are miracles, and the only thing she was ever waiting for was him. She rips up Jack's business card and kisses him.

Sawyer and Nemesis walk to the edge of a cliff, and Sawyer asks now what. Nemesis says, now they go down. Sawyer asks, down where? Nemesis points to a small cave in the bluff. Sawyer says he already died, so this is no big deal for him, but he's not going. Nemesis says he'll go first. He starts to descend the ladder leading to the cave, and asks if Sawyer is coming. Sawyer reluctantly follows, and almost falls from one of the ladders. The other gives way and he swings from the cliff. Nemesis grabs his hand and they finish going down the ladder together, and enter the cave. A white and black rock sit on a scale on a desk inside. Nemesis removes the white rock, throwing off the balance, and tosses it into the water. Sawyer asks what it was about, and Nemesis says, inside joke. Sawyer asks, is this what he wanted him to see? Nemesis says, no, and lights a torch as he ventures into the cave. He points to the cave and says that's why Sawyer is here. Sawyer shines a light on the writing on the cave, seeing a collection of names, including those of the passengers from Oceanic 815.

----------------

Locke oversees a team running laps. Afterwards, in a classroom, he tells a class to open their books to talk about the human reproductive system. He stops a student to ask where the teacher's lounge is. The student directs him, and he enters, hearing Ben talk about coffee etiquette. Ben introduces himself, as a teacher of European history. Locke introduces himself as a substitute.

Sawyer asks Nemesis who wrote all that. Nemesis says his name was Jacob, and he died yesterday. Sawyer says he doesn't seem upset about it. Nemesis says he's not. Sawyer asks why the names are crossed out. Nemesis says they're not all crossed out. Sawyer finds Shepard, and asks if it's Jack Shepard. Nemesis points out that he's not the only one, and shows him Hurley's entry. He then points out numbered entries for Sayid, Kwon (for Sun or Jin), and Locke. Finally, he shows him Sawyer's entry with the number 15. Sawyer says he never met him, and Nemesis says he did meet Jacob at some point in his life. He says he manipulated him, pulled his strings like a puppet, and choices he made were never really choices at all. He says he was pushing him to the Island. Sawyer asks why he would do that. Nemesis says Sawyer was a candidate. Sawyer asks, a candidate for what? Nemesis says that Jacob thought he was a protector of the Island and Sawyer had been nominated to take over that job. He says he had three choices: Sawyer could do nothing, and his name might get crossed out. He says he could accept the job, become the new Jacob, and protect the Island. Sawyer asks, protect it from what? Nemesis says, nothing, that's the joke, it's just an Island and it would be fine on its own. Nemesis explains that the third choice is that they just go, get the hell off the Island, and never look back. Sawyer asks, how do they do that? Nemesis says, together. He asks if Sawyer is ready to go home. Sawyer says, hell yes.

Cut to LOST

The Big Questions:

  • What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?
  • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?
  • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?
  • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?
  • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?
  • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?
  • Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?
  • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?
  • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?
  • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?
  • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?
  • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

Lost in the Vines Trivia Question:

What number was assigned to Jack Shepard in the cave?

This Week in Original Articles:

Once again those who write original articles this year will be entered (once per week) in this year's contest. Contributing original articles or being the first to answer the trivia questions are the ways to be entered, so feel free to write!

  • Still Hung up on Those Eyes (scrambledeggs)
  • Now Boarding Ajira Flight 316 passengers 2007 to 1977 and connecting passengers to 2004 (say what??)

Next, on Lost: Lighthouse

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Steve Watts's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Entertainment Gateway, Lost in the Vines, TV Lounge
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (456)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
Steve Watts

Whoo! What an episode. I'm just going to get right down to it this week.

CHEERS:

  • Hurley: "He's kind of a douche."
  • Sawyer: "It ain't"
  • Ben: "He was a believer... I'm sorry I killed him."
  • Actual plot development! Pretty refreshing after last week with Kate was a whole lot of nothing.
  • The best Lost episodes juxtapose the flashes with what's happening on the Island. Even after six years, they found some really clever ways to do that this week.

BIG QUESTIONS:

What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

I assume he just wanted him alone to try to convince him to join his cause. Oddly, he did tell him it was time to "start talking," so Richard must have had some information that Nemesis wanted. I just have no idea what that might be.

Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?

I got a very Walt vibe from those scenes. Maybe it was Little Jacob, or some other manifestation of the spiritual energies keeping the Island in check? I don't know.

What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?

Well now that we know there have been multiple "Jacobs," so to speak, maybe its his ashes that are keeping Nemesis at bay. That is to say, the former protectors of the Island are ritually burned, and the ashes are used to trap Nemesis. If that's so, though, it was awfully stupid of Nemesis to burn Jacob at all, knowing that would just turn him to ash. Then again, we know Nemesis enjoys his little ironic jokes. Maybe being trapped by ash so often, he decided to mock him about it.

What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?

My first inclination was some kind of confrontation, but I don't think so anymore. As far as he's concerned, Jacob is dead, he's already won. Now his goal is to get off the Island, and for that he seems to need help. He may not need to recruit an army; just one person willing to help could be enough.

Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

Magic.

Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?

Well, if Nemesis wants to get to the mainland, I have to imagine that's a very bad idea, and that's what Richard was referencing as being dire towards everyone Sawyer cares about. More on that in a moment.

Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?

This isn't really a mysterious question, more one of character motivation that my wife brought up. My response, at least what I'm thinking from knowing Sawyer, is that he's (a) pretty cynical (b) naturally curious, and (c) confident in himself. I think he wants to know what's going on, so he's willing to take risks like following Nemesis to find out. It seems slightly out of character, especially for someone like Sawyer who can smell a con from a mile away, but I'm willing to shrug it off.

Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?

Maybe Jacob was a human too, and was chosen from the former protector of the Island. But we do know that Jacob and Nemesis were around during the time period of the Black Rock, so I have to wonder how often the mantle needs to be passed.

Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?

They can't put Terry O'Quinn out of work.

How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?

We already knew that they corresponded to their seat numbers. I'm going to say this was just a wink and a nod to fans to help shroud the numbers in an extra layer of mystery.

What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?

This is just a wild theory, but maybe protecting the Island is only half of his responsibilities. Or, to be more accurate, the Island needs protecting, but the more serious of his goals is to keep Nemesis on the Island. That is to say, his job is not so much to protect the Island itself, but to keep the rest of the world from being threatened by this evil force that resides on the Island.

Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

I have no idea. But again, this seems like a spectacularly bad idea.

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:34 PM EST
ctina1973

I had the thought of him needing Sawyer as part of the ying-yang thing. If Sawyer was a candidate and assumed control, they could work together to get off the Island and actually do it. Like a team thing instead of adversarial. Of course UnLocke/Nemesis is probably playing him, but it sounds good.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:15 AM EST
dcotts42

Aren't the numbers next to the names the hatch numbers/Hurley's winning lottery numbers?

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:39 AM EST
Shaun Guidolin

Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

Magic.

Perhaps Sawyer is now evil?

It seems slightly out of character, especially for someone like Sawyer who can smell a con from a mile away, but I'm willing to shrug it off.

But it wasn't a con though .. he showed him exactly what he thought he was going to see. My thoughts are that Sawyer has nothing left to lose, and really what's the worst that could happen - be killed? At this point I'm pretty sure Sawyer is ok with that.

I'm going to say this was just a wink and a nod to fans to help shroud the numbers in an extra layer of mystery.

I dunno, Jacob had a thing for numbers -- that was a classic line, and it went right with Nemisis throwing away the "good" white stone from the balance.

Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

I have no idea. But again, this seems like a spectacularly bad idea.

I'm going with the theory that if Sawyer is the potential "protector" of the island then he's the good half, and Nemisis is the bad half.. and you need to be whole to leave.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:45 AM EST
Nicey-1026620

My theory is Jack is going to be the new Jacob and Sawyer will be the new Nemisis.

Sawyer will turn bad.

These episodes have been good, Season 5 was fantastic. Season 6 is looking just as good so far.

I'm surprised there's this many comments. Usually Scott posts regularly about Lost and we only get 20 posts in a thread.

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST
Nicey-1026620

Has anyone else noticed that the "Flash Sideways" as they are calling the "what if they never crashed" is an altered reality from 1977 on.

Ben is no longer the leader of the Island, he's a teacher, Shannon didn't come back with her Brother like she originally did, etc, etc.

Though they were all on the flight, some lives are not exactly the same as the original ones who crashed.

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:22 PM EST
Nicey-1026620

CHEERS:

You forgot the line..."This is the weirdest funeral I've ever been to."

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:25 PM EST
Spikegary

Nicey-did you notice Desmond was on the flight that didn't crash also?

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:58 PM EST
FortifiedHooligan

This is a week late and a dollar short, but how exactly are Sawyer and Flocke going to get out of that cave if one of the ladders used to get down became detached? Think Smokie will take Sawyer for a spin?

    #1.8 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:59 AM EST
    Reply
    Anjillina
  • What did Nemesis want to ask Richard? He wanted to try to recruit Richard. Again. So "will you join me?" was the question
  • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered? AARON! It does look just like a little male Claire. To the point that it was creepy. Either that or a baby Jacob, but since it was giving Nemesis a hard time about killing Jacob, it probably isn't Jacob. It sure looks like Aaron.
  • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes? Use them for protection if necessary.
  • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for? The Dark Side. Anti Jacob folks. People who are against everything good.
  • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't? Richard had already made a declaritive statement against Nemesis. He is already on the side of Jacob and good, so no need for him to see anything to sway him. Sawyer hadn't made his decision yet - therefore he could still see the child.
  • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead? Because he is evil personified. And, if everyone is dead, the island is no longer protected, he has beaten Jacob and he "wins".
  • Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning? Because in general he doesn't give a crap any more, but he does think that if he finds out why he's there on the island, maybe he'll understand why he had to meet then lose Juliet. And he never trusted Richard or anybody else related to the Others, so why should he start trusting him now?
  • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims? Possibly - and when he chose the dark side, he became trapped on the island as the antithesis to Jacob's good protector as punishment. But that could also be a ruse. You can't trust evil - it will say whatever is convenient for it's own purposes.
  • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore? Because it was a form of trickery - and the only way he could get around the "you can't kill Jacob" rule. He had to commit to the trick 100% for it to be believable and to do that, he had to "become" Locke. Although he can still change into Smokey, so he can actually change form somewhat.
  • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors? Don't know yet. Maybe there were that many potentials to begin with, but it was narrowed down to the crucial numbers before we were all brought in. All the other potentials had already been eliminated.
  • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island? Being stuck there forever for one. But basically it means watching out for humans and probably being the force of good in residence for the world.
  • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island? Only has power when he has followers. Same as Jacob. Without followers to power him, he's nothing.
  • Cheers - I love Hurley. I'm so glad things are going well for him in the LA timeline. OK - did everyone notice that Kate is not a potential protector for the island?? She's not on the ceiling and doesn't have a number. I KNEW she didn't have the potential that some of the others seemed too! At least it seemed that way to me. So we're down to five potentials. Who seem to be all men unless the "Kwon" is Sun. Also loved seeing more interactions in LA between Losties (Rose, Hurley, Locke - very cool).

    Jeers - new mystery. Who's the kid. Let's solve instead of add new mysteries.

    • 6 votes
    #2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:48 PM EST
    Rebecca D

    Just wondering...how could the boy be Aaron? Kate didn't bring him back on the Ajira flight. Although, I agree he does look a lot like Claire.

    I thought he was Jacob re-incarnated. How else did he know about the "rules" that Flocke isn't supposed to kill Sawyer?

    • 3 votes
    #2.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:08 PM EST
    blackwidow1

    I, too, thought of Aaron first when I saw the boy ... interesting how his arms were bloody ... haven't figured that out yet. My thoughts at the moment are along the lines of this - even though Aaron is not physically on the island, he was born there and perhaps a part of him (his spirit) continues to be a part of the island. It was a HUGE deal that he was born and survived in a place where babies just don't survive. Perhaps the island captured a part of his life force/his essence when he was born.

    • 2 votes
    #2.2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:20 PM EST
    ranturn

    And did you notice the clothes he was wearing? Seemed like an outfit from the Black Rock times. And if it is Jacob re-incarnated, (which I thought of immediately - See my post #9), can we expect to see more of him?

    • 2 votes
    #2.3 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:22 PM EST
    NCL70506

    My first thought was the boy was Jacob. Nemesis and Richard were talking about Jacob at the time the boy first appeared. Nemesis looked very unsettled when he saw him and quickly left the area and Richard, even though he clearly was not finished talking with him.

    The second time the boy appeared, Nemesis ran towards him. (By the way, I found it odd that Nemesis tripped and fell, since he is being portrayed as this powerful "being.") Then he looked up at the boy who said "You know the rules. You can't kill him." Now if the boy is Jacob (young, reincarnated, vision, whatever), I think he would have said "You can't kill ME." So, now I am thinking that this could be some representation of the Island reminding Nemesis that he can't kill Jacob, maybe not even through a substitute (Locke), and that the essence of Jacob (good) is still on the Island.

    • 3 votes
    #2.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:08 AM EST
    Mike Johnson-1604544

    I was also very surprised that flocke was able to trip and fall -- and was so winded. Then there was a weird shot where I almost thought his legs weren't going to work. And then he started yelling at the kid, "Don't tell me what I can't do." It made me wonder if the real locke wasn't in there somewhere, trying to take back over.

    As for the kid, who knows. too old to be Aaron and I agree that, if jacob, he wouldn't refer to himself in the third person. I just find it interesting/frustrating, that just when we think we've finally met the top dogs on the island (Jacob and Nemesis) now we get a new kid seemingly superior to Nemesis, reminding him of rules.

    • 4 votes
    #2.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:32 AM EST
    Anjillina

    NCL70506 - I agree totally about the reason I didn't think it was Jacob - the statement about "you can't kill him." Of course the child is older than the Aaron we know. I think it is some sort of time travel, alternate universe Aaron. Not that Kate or anyone actually brought the Aaron we know at the correct age to island. I agree that the child looks about 8 to 9 years old. And I also wondered about the blood the first time you see him. Something to do with the prior evil deeds of Nemesis that caused him to be imprisoned on the island to begin with? Who knows.

    • 2 votes
    #2.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:17 AM EST
    Pfemm

    I was also very surprised that flocke was able to trip and fall -- and was so winded. Then there was a weird shot where I almost thought his legs weren't going to work. And then he started yelling at the kid, "Don't tell me what I can't do." It made me wonder if the real locke wasn't in there somewhere, trying to take back over.

    This is similar to what I thought when Locke fell and said that. My initial take was that by taking on Locke's persona so fully he took the good and the bad.

    I like yours better though... that Locke is in there somewhere. He is one of my most favorite characters on the show. I'm always rooting for him. :)

    Then he looked up at the boy who said "You know the rules. You can't kill him." Now if the boy is Jacob (young, reincarnated, vision, whatever), I think he would have said "You can't kill ME."

    My take on this was that the kid was refering to Sawyer not Jacob. That candidates can't be killed by either side.

    Also, I loved that Sawyer could tell that Flocke was not Locke. That whole little scene describing the old Locke and the differences between the two. Awesome.

    I was also really happy to see him doing (mostly) well in the LA timeline. Getting married and all. :D

    I don't know what it is about his character for me... I just want to see him happy.

    • 9 votes
    #2.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:55 AM EST
    Inchiki

    I like to think that the blood actually supports my suggestion that the boy is the Island (#10). The Island has powers, like the electromagnetic thingamajig under the Hatch or the healing waters. The "blood" is like the healing waters getting cloudy. Like the other representations, it is showing that the balance is turning towards the Nemesis (Black Rock).

    • 2 votes
    #2.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:10 AM EST
    FortifiedHooligan

    I was thinking that the "him" the kid was referring to was Sawyer, that he could not be killed because it was against the rules. I'm going to go with that being a younger Jacob, I think it being Aaron is too much of a stretch.

    Well, looks like I wasn't the only one with this thought, guess I should have refreshed the page before I posted heh

    • 5 votes
    #2.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:30 AM EST
    T Bourlon

    When the child said, "You can't kill him," I thought he meant Richard. I got the idea that if Richard didn't agree UnLocke was gonna cut his head off with the machete, but suddenly this kid shows up. YEAH, UnLocke looked scared, strange for an all-powerful being, don't you think? As for UnLocke tripping, well maybe it takes alot of energy to maintain a human form, or maybe he's starting to take on human parameters and weaknesses.

    So, Kate's not a candidate, eh? Kind of bolsters my theory that Claire is gonna shoot her. But then again, didn't Jacob visit her, too? I seem to remember he did.

    • 3 votes
    #2.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:32 AM EST
    Anjillina

    Yes, Jacob visited Kate when she was a child. Something about stealing a lunchbox with her best friend or something. So apparently he wanted her on the island for some reason, but she was never a candidate because her name doesn't coincide with any of the original numbers. Unless later we find out that she is secretly Sayid's sister or something - since it only listed last names, it leaves that possibility open. But that would be a total cop out in my opinion.

    On another note, I am just so happy about Hurley. I think as long as Hurley ends up happy and in a good place at the end of the show, I'll be happy. He's such a good guy and his life just seemed so sucky on the original timeline. I'm glad to see things going better for him.

    • 1 vote
    #2.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:23 AM EST
    kcjhawk

    Maybe the Nemesis has to take the body of one of the Candidates, but cannot kill him to do it. Now that he is Flocke, he has kind of become human again, but has to take the human frailties, too--like when he tripped. Maybe he can be killed and that is what will get him home????

    The rule the boy was talking about must be the one everyone keeps mentioning about not being able to kill a candidate. When Aldo wanted to shoot Jin, Justin said you can't kill him he's one of them. Lennon said they would all be in trouble if Sayid died and is extremely concerned about getting everyone on the list back and safe at the temple. So the Nemesis has to recruit them willingly to follow him he can't just kill them to keep them from becoming Jacob.

    • 4 votes
    #2.12 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:08 PM EST
    mearth1961

    But maybe, the boy isn't Jacob OR Aaron but whoever set this up and created the rules? I suspect that not only was he was reminding Nem that it was aginst the rules to kill Jacob...(even though in Nem's mind he had Ben actually do it so it was a loophole, but using another person as your weapon doesn't mean you aren't culpable), I think it was more of a statement "You CAN'T kill him, it's against the rules" trying to notify Nem that he wasn't successfull in his loophole theory and that Jacob still exists?

    • 1 vote
    #2.13 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:23 PM EST
    Sandra Dee-977431

    I'm wondering why Kate isnt a candidate if she was "touched" by Jacob as were the rest of the candidates...

    • 1 vote
    #2.14 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:42 PM EST
    JohnBoy813

    I believe the "You can't kill him" line refers to the person that is destined to become the new Jacob. But he can get someone else to do the killing (an indirect action verses a direct one).

    • 1 vote
    #2.15 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:25 PM EST
    say what??

    We know Jacob is still a player - he appeared to Hurley and told him how to save Sayid. Ilana said Nemesis is "recruiting" and so far he failed with Richard and has Sawyer in the recruiting office but Sawyer has not signed the contract. After his "death" Jacob might be in a kind of limbo - sidelined but not out of the game - and needs the help of his candidates to get back into the game, and Nemesis is trying to recruit the candidates to his side to keep that from happening. I'm curious to see if anyone besides Hurley or Miles (with "dead people" psychic abilities) will interact with Jacob. Even though Nemesis threw the white stone into the ocean and unbalanced the scale in favor of the black stone, unless Nemesis "recruits" the candidates he will lose. It is interesting that in the cave when Nemesis is explaining to Sawyer about being a candidate and the three options, by the end of the scene both of their faces are lit so half is in light and half is in shadow - the scale can still tip the other way.

    • 1 vote
    #2.16 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:09 AM EST
    Shaun Guidolin

    You can't kill him

    Remember this was also brought up when Ben was fighting against Widmore. I'd suppose they were both candidates and that's why they couldn't kill each other. Which may also explain why Widmore wanted to get to the island so bad.

    • 1 vote
    #2.17 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:58 AM EST
    Reply
    scrambledeggs

    Wow! A couple of mind-blowing moments tonight. Whoever thought up that the two opposing forces were perhaps interdependent upon each other for survival may be right - I think that image of the scales on equal weights between the black and white stones would support that theory.

    When Flocke said of John Locke "John is, was, a candidate" - I tke was a candidate to be the new Jacob, but then Nemisis cut in. hat did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

    • 3 votes
    Reply#3 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:53 PM EST
    scrambledeggs

    Sorry something crazy happened with this post here's my thoughts:

    I think Nemisis wants to know how to get his form off the island. Maybe by using Sawyer's body - but Ilana said he can't change again, but I believe that Richard knows how he could this, and that's what Nemisis wanted to ask him. He refused of course. But Sawyer is at least willing to hear what Nem has to say, so he's going along with him for now, and that's why he sees the boy. Because he's already leaning to Nem's team - Sawyer doesn't have anything left to lose. If you're equating this boy with images of Walt, I had that same idea - If Walt appeared at various ages with information that helped the players do what they needed to do, then I buy that this kid is doing the same on the other side. In last week's episode, Dr. Ethan said of Claire's baby - he's going to be a handful. I think this boy is Aaron, on Nemisis' side.

    The island has been a prison for Nem, but if the people who could keep him in are killed, then he can escape into the real world. Jacob was the warden as well as garden keeper. He used his own body to keep Nemesis under control. I think that Locke was originally a candidate to be the new Jacob, since he "got" the island right away. Then Nemesis cut in.

    I'll have to sleep on those numbers corresponding to the survivors. Since we've already kicked around lots of things that the numbers represent, I'm sure that the numbers correspond to the player's functions, like 16 always being a skilled military trained assasin who's a good radio fixer and bomb rewirer.

    • 4 votes
    #3.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:15 PM EST
    Sabastian Palpatine

    Hey baby, I hear the blues a-callin', Tossed salad and scrambled eggs......Oh my, quite stylish.....And maybe I seem a bit confused, yeah maybe, but I got you pegged! Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!

    But I don't know what to do with those tossed salads and scraaambled egggssss, They're callin' again!

    Sorry, whenever I see your screen name I think of Frazier;)

    I think that your theories are spot on. I'd also like to add though, that the real John Locke still may have something to say about this. As Mike Johnson has already commented, it shocked me that Flocke stumbled while running after the astral projection of the un-named child. It knocked me off of my Lazy Boy when he yelled "don't tell me what I can't do!"

    So I have to ask the question, just as Mike Johnson did, is Locke still in there? Can John fight for control over The Monster?

    It makes sense if you understand the whole Yin/Yang theory and how there's always a small circle of light waiting to take over within the controlling darkness and vice verca. The symbol of Yin/Yang is a visual aid used to show movement and balance....

    It is a circle made up of two different tadpole or fish like parts, one in black (known as the Yin side) and the other in white (known as the Yang side). You will notice that in Yang (represented by the white tadpole) lies the seed of Yin (represented by the black dot) and vice-versa. In addition Yin and Yang are cyclical. In the symbol you can see that Yang grows but at its height, Yin emerge. Then Yin grows and at its height Yang appears and the cycle repeats itself.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!

    .....They're callin' again....Good night, Seattle, we love you!....Frasier has left the building!

    • 3 votes
    #3.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:07 PM EST
    say what??

    It makes sense if you understand the whole Yin/Yang theory and how there's always a small circle of light waiting to take over within the controlling darkness and vice verca.

    There is a literal circle of light in the statue when Ben and Ilana talk. The lighting of the scene is interesting. It is brightest in the center of the fire pit (the "small circle of light") where Jacob's ashes are, then there are darker shades of gray that become dark shadows. Ilana stands in the shadows on one side, Ben stands in the shadows in the doorway. She crosses through the fire pit light to go to Ben. In the surrounding shadows Ben and Ilana have normal coloring but in the fire pit light they take on a deathly pale, ashen coloring. Ilana takes ashes from the "small circle of light" to carry into the controlling darkness.

    • 2 votes
    #3.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:44 PM EST
    pinkcap

    Sebastian - You have to wonder if Locke is still in there. The Nemesis does have Locke's memories and he stumbled in the jungle when chasing the child. He was telling Sawyer that he was once a man who felt emotion, been betrayed and lost the love of his life. It sounds like Locke's story, but maybe he was tricked into coming to the island and lost the love of his life that way.

    Thanks for the info on yin/yang. Very interesting.

      #3.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:35 PM EST
      scrambledeggs

      I LOVE the ideas about Locke still being in Flocke somewhere, and fighting! LOVE it! I'd love that to be true!

      And thanks, Sebastian, I'll be humming that song in my head for the rest of the night!

        #3.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:29 PM EST
        pinkcap

        scrambled eggs - I just re-read your post (#3.1). I was thinking the child was Jacob's until I read a new post from lostinventura this morning (I can't remember the number, but it would be one of the later posts on page 3). He watched the show again and he heard the boy say "We can't kill him" instead of "you can't kill him." That changed my thinking about who this child is. The we does imply that he his on the Nemesis' side.

        You suggested that the child was Aaron and that he was on the side of the Nemesis. I was wondering, did we ever see the father of Aaron? This might be way out there ... could the Nemesis be the father of Aaron? We have seen him appear as Christian off the island. Could he have taken the body of some young man temporarily and hooked up with Claire?

          #3.6 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:32 AM EST
          blackwidow1

          Hey pinkcap,

          I think Aaron's father's name was Tom. He was Claire's boyfriend who walked out on her after she got pregnant. I think he was an artist and just not ready to be a father. Don't remember the episode we see him in off the top of my head, but it could possibly be "Raised by Another."

          Nemesis being the father of Aaron by assuming the body of some random guy and hooking up with Claire is way out there ... I like it but doubt it

          I'm off to find lostinventura's post that you mention ... I think I'm gonna have to rewatch this episode for a third time (My poor non-Lost-watching daughter really thinks I'm off my rocker ... she's 17 and rolls her eyes everytime I mention Lost ... she's an expert eye-roller BTW LOL

            #3.7 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:34 PM EST
            scrambledeggs

            Blackwidow - I hear ya - my kids and husband throw up their hand and say 'I don't want to hear it' even if I beg. Thanks goodness for this website :)

              #3.8 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:21 PM EST
              lostinventura

              anyone determine if the boy said "we?" fortunately for me my child is 8 months old and more interested in crawling than my incessant need to rewatch the show. Lost is the best break for a new mom.

                #3.9 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:37 AM EST
                say what??

                I listened several times with the volume up and the picture zoomed and it sounds like "you" to me and the Lostpedia transcript has "you".

                http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Substitute_transcript

                  #3.10 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:02 AM EST
                  pinkcap

                  I watched the episode yesterday and I listened 4 times to what the child said. It was hard to make out if it was we or you. The child did not say the word clearly. Lostpedia is fairly accurate, so I would go with their transcript.

                  Black widow - Like I said, the idea was a crazy one. I heard a spoiler months ago that one of the Losties or Ilana might be Jacob's child. The producers were so guarded with the story this year, so I didn't put much credence into anything that didn't come out of an interview with the producers. Around the same time, I heard a spoiler about Kate being a fugitive and taking Claire to the hospital. That one was right. I also heard a spoiler about the numbers being assigned to the O6. Well, that one turned out to be correct too. Now I'm taking the Jacob's child spoiler a bit more seriously and I'm trying to figure out who it could be (so far, I'm guessing Ilana or Desmond. Ilana seems to know so much, but I would prefer it to be Desmond). Of course, this is the one spoiler that could be completely wrong and I'm just wasting my time thinking about this.

                  Black widow and scrambledeggs - I can relate. My family watches the show, but they don't care about all the details. They don't want to hear about theories or insights. I have teenagers and as you know, they are not exactly the best at thinking anything you do is normal, so basically, they think I'm nuts when it comes to this show.

                    #3.11 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:25 AM EST
                    kcjhawk

                    You know, Ben tried to kill Widmore's daughter after Widmore had Alex killed. . .Maybe Nemesis DID kill Jacob's son and that is why the boy appeared bloody the first time. Maybe it is some kind of island vendetta.

                      #3.12 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:31 AM EST
                      LightOwl8

                      pinkcap - responding to your post #3.4:

                      I agree that Nemesis has Locke's memories, but I notice that while he said that he was trapped (probably speaking of himself/Nemesis), he then said that he "knows what it's like" to feel emotions and to lose someone you love -- I think, in that second part, he was referring at least partly to Locke's memories and not to his own experience.

                      It will be interesting to see what this mix of the two characters turns out to be!

                        #3.13 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:32 AM EST
                        Reply
                        Aqualeo

                        Cheers:

                        • Locke seaming really happy. Plus, the scene with the van was really funny
                        • Ben is still Evil Ben.
                        • Sawyer saying "I thought you were dead" pretty funny.
                        • The numbers finally being explained kind of...

                        Jeers:

                        • Sawyer drinking like afrat boy...seemed a little cliche
                        • Locke saying he was trapped instead of actually answering anything
                        • Locke Prime is dead??? I can already see the shot of his hand coming out of the dirt
                        • Sawyer falling down the ladders. It seemed to be action for no reason.

                        The Big Questions:

                        What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?
                        not really sure
                        Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?
                        no idea but he was definitely the judge in the whole game
                        What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?
                        I took those ashes as being "the ashes" they use against Smokey
                        What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?
                        the war
                        Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?
                        Sawyer is one of the candidates
                        Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?
                        He wants revenge for being trapped on the island. I don't know how he is going to do this
                        Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?
                        He really wants answers now that he feels he's got nothing to lose.
                        Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?
                        no
                        Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?
                        maybe once he becomes one of the candidates he can't change again
                        How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?
                        not really sure...does the order they come in matter?
                        What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?
                        Jacob is protecting it from Smokey.
                        Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?
                        He is only using the idea of getting off the island to make Sawyer help him.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#4 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:54 PM EST
                        Syntactic Tree

                        Sawyer falling down the ladders. It seemed to be action for no reason.

                        Even though Sawyer usually acts on his own instincts, regardless of external facts, I think it was written in as a scene to allow Sawyer to see that Nemesis/Locke is at least willing to save him, which, in Sawyer's mind, is in the immediate present contra what Richard told him.

                        Now, Sawyer has never been a dumb - just irrational at times - so certainly he recognizes this individual needs his help, but for the moment, he could have let Sawyer die, and he did not.

                        • 7 votes
                        #4.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:23 PM EST
                        sweetpeas2ds

                        Syntactic Tree - I agree about UnLocke saving Sawyer. Either for his own needs or to gain his trust, but I believe it was purposeful to show the UnLocke needs Sawyer for some reason.

                        • 3 votes
                        #4.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:17 AM EST
                        visichy

                        I also think the broken ladders could be setting something up for the next episode. How will Sawyer get out of the cave?

                          #4.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:36 PM EST
                          Brian Ford

                          Oh, there'll be a back door, or something. I thought the same thing, but it seems like the sort of detail they'll gloss over and not even try to explain away.

                          • 1 vote
                          #4.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:44 PM EST
                          Pfemm

                          Well... maybe Flocke could tell Sawyer to wait in the cave... Then switch over to Smokey mode and fix the ladder then come back fro Sawyer...

                            #4.5 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:07 AM EST
                            Reply
                            BlackRock Steve

                            Hi Steve...NOW, we're getting somewhere...and I think it's heading right where I thought! I JUST love this show…Lost just keeps getting better!

                            Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                            Magic.

                            Sawyer has not yet been "claimed" or infected and thus can see young Jacob, or is that teenage Aaron!? Richard, on the other hand, is claimed and a long-time follower of Jacob!!

                            Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?

                            They can't put Terry O'Quinn out of work.

                            Agree on not wanting to see less of Terry O'Q, but unless I blinked and missed something, Nemesis can still change form if/when he wants or needs to...as illustrated by his arrival at Dharmaville as seen from Smokey's "eyes"...nest film-making!

                            =BRS

                            • 4 votes
                            Reply#5 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:55 PM EST
                            Steve Watts

                            Nemesis can still change form if/when he wants or needs to...

                            I'm not sure that means he can change form. It seems he can be Smokey, of course, but his "human" form is stuck as Locke if Ilana is to be believed.

                            • 3 votes
                            #5.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:04 PM EST
                            BlackRock Steve

                            Thanks, I missed that line!

                            No comments from anyone else, but I give Cheers for Ben and his moment of truth/comment at real Locke's grave..."I'm very Sorry I murdered him."....the guy we all loved to hate and thought was evil for so many seasons...now the realization he was out manipulated by a master....and is now as much a 'victim' as the losties!

                            • 5 votes
                            #5.2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:11 PM EST
                            BlackRock Steve

                            What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?

                            Well now that we know there have been multiple "Jacobs," so to speak, maybe its his ashes that are keeping Nemesis at bay. That is to say, the former protectors of the Island are ritually burned,...

                            Interesting theory, but I think a bit extreme. the statue is Taweret the Protector and the fire pit is in the base as is Jacob's home...I have assumed since last season's finale that the ash is the ash of "protection" from Jacob's firepit...in Egyptian mythology, a temple (the statue) was considered to have magical powers as in the ash from a temple firepit or water from a temple fountain, etc.

                            • 2 votes
                            #5.3 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:20 PM EST
                            Shaun Guidolin

                            if Ilana is to be believed.

                            Ilana is proving to be an important character here.. I'm guessing it here 1st that she's Jacob's (or Nemesis) sister.

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:52 AM EST
                            mearth1961

                            I'll be the first to suggest that Illana is Richards great-great-great-great-great-great-great Granddaughter!

                            • 1 vote
                            #5.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:27 PM EST
                            Reply
                            lkgroves

                            How did Locke break his back in the new timeline? I got that it couldn't have been his dad because Locke and fiance (can't remember her name!!!) were going to invite him to the wedding!

                            Also, I just wanted to comment that I loved the Lepidus line, "Weirdest damn show I've ever been to." It made me laugh.

                            • 10 votes
                            Reply#6 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:06 PM EST
                            lkgroves

                            helen! that's her name.

                            • 1 vote
                            #6.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:10 PM EST
                            ctina1973

                            It was "weirdest damn funeral I've ever been to." I laughed as well!

                            • 3 votes
                            #6.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:57 AM EST
                            Pfemm

                            How did Locke break his back in the new timeline? I got that it couldn't have been his dad because Locke and fiance

                            This is what I'm wondering too! and if Locke and his real dad are good then perhaps he's not a con-man in this life and if that's the case....

                            What does that mean for Sawyer?!?!?

                            • 9 votes
                            #6.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:24 AM EST
                            pinkcap

                            Pfemm - I read that Sawyer will still have his attitude, but he's on the right side of the law in the new reality. Jacob has not touched these people in this reality and their lives have not been influenced by what Jacob wanted for them. Who knows how many people Jacob has touched to influence this game. We have only seen 8 people touched by him - there could be hundreds.

                            • 4 votes
                            #6.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:36 AM EST
                            Pfemm

                            I have to say i can't wait till we get to see Sawyer's story!

                              #6.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 AM EST
                              Sabastian Palpatine

                              It's funny, before last night's episode (and through the first portion of it) it drove me bonkers (more than usual) that they hadn't buried Locke yet.

                              Just as I was thinking "for Christ's sake, will you bury the damn body!" it was like Sun read my thoughts and suggested that it would be a good idea to do something with the stiff body already in the advanced stages of decay(...ah...gag...gulp...sorry, i just vomited a little)

                              Oh, and for the record Jeff Fahey has been to weirder shows. Has anyone seen Grind House/ Planet Terror?

                              • 3 votes
                              #6.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:36 PM EST
                              Pfemm

                              I was thinking "for Christ's sake, will you bury the damn body!"

                              I KNOW!!! I could help but think about them dumping his body out on the beach and just leaving him there... out in the hot sun.... ripening.... eww.

                                #6.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:42 PM EST
                                say what??

                                Purina Polar Bear Chow

                                • 1 vote
                                #6.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:47 PM EST
                                Sabastian Palpatine

                                "Purina Polar Bear Chow"

                                Ha!

                                Now with more tangy worms for extra flavor!

                                  #6.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST
                                  pinkcap

                                  say what and Sebastian - funny... but yuck!

                                    #6.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:37 PM EST
                                    scrambledeggs

                                    oh jeesh you guys i just had dinner!

                                      #6.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:34 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      mearth1961

                                      â– What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?
                                      He wants Richard to change allegiance.

                                      â– Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?
                                      Jacob

                                      â– What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?
                                      Use them to ward against Nemesis? Where did the other protective ashes come from?
                                      How many times over the eons might Jacob have "died"?

                                      â– What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?
                                      The upcoming war to attempt change the balance?

                                      â– Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?
                                      Because he's not just a candidate but The One?

                                      â– Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?
                                      He can't risk another protector surviving/succeeding...I doubt it really matters how they die.

                                      â– Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?
                                      Why not? He's got nothing better to do and nothing really to lose in his mind...but I suspect Sawyer wants to hold someone accountable for everything that has happened from the get-go (back to his Dad's con), wants some answers, etc. But Sawyer learned how to be a great con man and reads people (even dead ones) better than anyone credits him for...I think he KNOWS that Flocke is runing some con and is playing him out to get what information he can to learn how to beat him at his own game....another reason I think Sawyer will end up being 'The One' that the Others have been waiting for?

                                      â– Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?
                                      I doubt it.....

                                      â– Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?
                                      I now suspect that he can only take on the form of a person who was already dead when arriving on the Island?
                                      I'm thinking those people's souls ( Christian, Eko's brother and dead returning Locke) were already gone and so he could take the body, but if a person died ON the Island their souls may be present there (the whispers?) and some rule prevents him from it? Since no additional dead bodies will be crashing on the Island in this round of game play - Flocke is stuck in that form? (unless he gets someone to willingly agree to possession?)

                                      â– How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?
                                      Fascinating!!! But still trying to figure out who all was assigned what number and to see what order they are in to see any pattern...hopefully someone will provide some research on that to help me formulate a theory!!!

                                      â– What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?
                                      To become the vessel that Jacob's spirit inhabits for the next eon or so as the wheel continues to turn?

                                      â– Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island? Because Nemesis is stuck in Locke form, Locke's real body can't be used. But if my above body/soul theory is right it's probably some scheme that requires timing of Sawyer dying at the exact moment of moving the Island or blowing the EM field again or something equally complicated.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      Reply#7 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:08 PM EST
                                      blackwidow1

                                      But Sawyer learned how to be a great con man and reads people (even dead ones) better than anyone credits him for...I think he KNOWS that Flocke is runing some con and is playing him out to get what information he can to learn how to beat him at his own game....another reason I think Sawyer will end up being 'The One' that the Others have been waiting for?

                                      mearth,

                                      I really like this theory ... I don't necessarily agree with it but I think its a fantastic theory and if the story plays out accordingly it will make for an awesome ending to this epic series!

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #7.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:28 PM EST
                                      BlackRock Steve

                                      I would agree if the writers follow the old adage about con men...."Never try to con a great Con Man!"

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #7.2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:33 PM EST
                                      Pfemm

                                      But Sawyer learned how to be a great con man and reads people (even dead ones) better than anyone credits him for...I think he KNOWS that Flocke is runing some con

                                      I loved the part with Flocke and Sawyer. and Sawyer revealing that he knows he's not the Real Locke. And then Flocke's surprise at the revelation. I really got the impression that he didn't think Sawyer would know.

                                      Also a reason why Sawyer's character is so badass! :)

                                      • 4 votes
                                      #7.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:36 AM EST
                                      pinkcap

                                      Mearth - there might be something to your theory about Sawyer being the one. In the Last Supper picture, Sawyer is in Peter's position. Peter was the Apostle that Jesus appointed to lead his church after he was gone. It was amazing that Sawyer was able to see through Flocke in 10 seconds, when Ben and Sun spent more time with him and did not see it. It was especially odd that Ben didn't see it. He was more aware of Locke's weaknesses than anyone because he always used it to his advantage.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      #7.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                      Jekazu

                                      Very true! It is odd that no one noticed a difference in Locke.

                                        #7.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:12 PM EST
                                        Superman2001

                                        Richard noticed a difference. And Ben had a lot going on himself, with his dead daughter threatening his life and all. Sun and Lapidus thought he should be dead in a coffin, so if he was a little different, that's not the strangest thing going on.

                                        Sawyer, on the other hand, is pretty good at seeing through people's bull crap. Apparently he always saw through Locke's facade of a confident man of faith, recognizing him as an angry, scared and confused man, emotionally handicapped. I don't know how he deduced that Bad Locke was different so quickly; maybe it's because he knew Locke was dead.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #7.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:17 PM EST
                                        Reply
                                        blackwidow1

                                        Can I just say WOW! I have so much to say about this episode ... but to the questions first:

                                        What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

                                        No clue.

                                        Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?

                                        My first thought was Aaron. Not that Aaron’s on the island, but perhaps since he was born on the island, a part of his spirit remains on the island in some form.

                                        What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?

                                        She thinks of them as protective (Jacob was the protector). She will use them like the ash rings we’ve seen used before to protect herself from Nemesis.

                                        What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?

                                        Someone to help him get off the island

                                        Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                                        Sawyer was drunk and susceptible to visions.

                                        Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?

                                        I don’t think he does. I think this is just Richard’s perspective because of what he’s been told by Jacob for years

                                        Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?

                                        Curiosity killed the cat! Seriously, Sawyer feels he has nothing left to live for so why not take the risk. And, despite his rough exterior, Sawyer is a very intellectual man and with intelligence comes a questioning nature. For example, look at all of us!

                                        Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?

                                        More than likely, yes. I believe that Jacob was also human at some point.

                                        Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?

                                        Because Jacob is dead. Jacob’s death changed the rules for Nemesis. Perhaps it was a consequence of the loophole.

                                        How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?

                                        Order in which Jacob wants the survivors’ candidacies to play out. He wanted Locke first, but Nemesis got him. Hurley will be the next in line.

                                        What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?

                                        Keep Nemesis trapped and continue to bring people to the island to play this odd little game they’ve been playing for eternity.

                                        Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

                                        Hmmmmm … Perhaps the more recruits he has on his “side” the more powerful he will become. I feel this “getting off the island” will be a long journey … just like he told Sun (while in the form of Christian) that it would be a long journey to get back to Jin.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #8 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:09 PM EST
                                        Rebecca D

                                        Interesting idea that the numbers correspond to Jacob's preference for which candidate will... win? get elected?.. whatever. If so, that would make Jack last, if I remember correctly? Meaning if all the others fall, it all rests on Jack.. how fitting.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #8.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:15 PM EST
                                        ranturn

                                        I think Kwon was #42.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #8.2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:44 PM EST
                                        blackwidow1

                                        Here is the list of names and numbers:

                                        • 4 – Locke
                                        • 8 – Hurley
                                        • 15 – Sawyer
                                        • 16 – Sayid
                                        • 23 – Jack
                                        • 42 – Kwon
                                        • 4 votes
                                        #8.3 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:49 PM EST
                                        ranturn

                                        And if you add the numbers it comes out to 108. Could this be significant? There seems to be many meanings behind this number. When added together, 1+0+8=9. Just did some research on the number and this theory stood out to me.

                                        "In the magic square of 9, there is 1 little square in the middle and 8 on the periphery. Also, the 1 central number is 5, the sum of the 8 peripheral numbers is 40, yielding a ratio of 1:8. The magic square itself, with equal sums of the three numerals on every line, is an important symbol of cosmic order, balance and integration. Painted on walls or wrought into little metal plates it is used as a luck-charm."

                                        Wow - 8 1 5 - Oceanic's flight number. And, is this what the fight between Jacob and Nemesis is all about - cosmic order, balance and integration?

                                        Everything has a meaning on this show and sometimes it really can make you nuts. Locke's alarm clock showed the time as 6:15. I am sure that has meaning too.

                                        • 5 votes
                                        #8.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:06 AM EST
                                        Inchiki

                                        Ranturn,

                                        It's the nature of brain to organize things into patterns to provide meaning. With most other TV shows, I would say that we're reading way too much into things. But with this show, I'd say the trick is to not jump on the obvious (pattern), and to look for connections that aren't apparent. So I wouldn't take much stock in 1+0+8=9 and 9 being the magic square. However, the fact that Desmond had 108 minutes to type in the "numbers" into the computer is significant. Or that the number of Oceanic are two of the numbers, 8 and 15. As you said, cosmic order, integration?

                                        By the way, great catch with Jacob's Ladder!

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #8.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:51 AM EST
                                        OnlyChild

                                        If Jacob is so happy being the island's protector, why does he need a replacement? He would just stay there. Maybe the candidate was meant to be a replacement for Nemesis or maybe they both wanted to leave. Maybe they were stuck there until they could find a replacement(s) and they have been trying all these years to no avail. I need to take another look at very first scene they appeared in together - last episode of last year, right?

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #8.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:17 AM EST
                                        Fain

                                        Why wasn't Kate's name listed as one of the possible candidates? Jacob had visited and "touched" her during her whole shoplifting ordeal so I don't see why she isn't included? Does the candidate have to be male?--Even though they did say they weren't sure whether Kwon meant Jin or Sun. If they do have to be male then why did Jacob bother "touching" Kate?

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #8.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:43 AM EST
                                        Shaun Guidolin

                                        Why wasn't Kate's name listed as one of the possible candidates?

                                        I'm guessing a male must be the leader .. it's also interesting that Desmond isn't on that list, when he's already been shown as being special.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #8.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:56 AM EST
                                        Suzy Q 184

                                        I was also wondering why we didn't see Kate's name in the cave, esp. considering that we have definitely seen Jacob "touch" her earlier in her life.

                                        I find it interesting, although not surprising that all of the names listed are male (going on the assumption that Kwon is Jin and not Sun). It makes sense that it would have to be a male to replace either Jacob or Nemesis.

                                        But now my big questions are: how long have those names been written in the cave? Were Ben or Richard's names ever written there and, if so, have they been crossed off? Did Jacob somehow guide Desmond to NOT press the numbers on the day he supposedly caused the plane crash? Do the numbers next to other names also correspond to Hurley's numbers, or are the other numbers random and the Losties that we know just HAPPEN to correspond to Hurley's numbers? And where did Jacob come up with those numbers anyway?

                                        You know, they keep advertising that the time for questions is over, but they are clearly not in my head! :)

                                          #8.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:15 AM EST
                                          say what??

                                          Jacob could have had more than one "cave" list. Since she is not on the one we saw with "the numbers", I wonder whether or not her name was on the ankh list. I thought it was strange that Dogen would trust newcomer Kate with the task of finding Sawyer and bringing him back. If it is so important for the Losties to be at the temple, he should have made Kate stay and sent his own people out to find Sawyer. But he allowed her to go - was there a special note about her on the ankh list? Does she have a "special ops mission" to carry out? Kate was touched by Jacob. Kate is special - she helped bring Aaron into the world on the island and cared for him off island. Aaron also seems to be very special. Claire disappeared after seeing Christian holding Aaron, and we just learned Claire was "claimed." Could the boy who told Nemesis what he can't do be Aaron who was claimed at the same time as his mother? And does he have a role to play in whether Nemesis goes home?

                                            #8.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:33 AM EST
                                            mearth1961

                                            I think I (we) jumped to the conclusion that the "Candidate" was a replacement for Jacob, since Jacob is presumed "dead". What if the Candidate is just meant to be the next true hand-chosen by Jacob Leader of the Others, as Ben falsely claimed to be and then was afraid that Locke WAS? Either way my money is still on Sawyer!

                                              #8.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:40 AM EST
                                              Brian Ford

                                              I guess I also question "why" these people? What makes these specific people are good candidate for any leadership role, let alone one as special as this? Most of them have incredibly troubled lives, some murderous and criminal.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #8.12 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:53 AM EST
                                              Rebecca D

                                              Regarding the numbers and cave list... we also didn't see Michael or Walt (unless they are already crossed off), so I wonder if somehow it was known they wouldn't be there in the end?

                                              I still want to know what happened to Walt!!! He was supposed to be so special??

                                                #8.13 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:48 PM EST
                                                pinkcap

                                                Brian - Yes these people have had major flaws, but they do have many good qualities. I initially thought Jacob selected them to prove that humans are flawed, but when given a chance to show their true character, they shine. Now it seems that in the new reality, Jacob didn't touch these people. If the Nemesis is right, Jacob manipulated their lives and now that he's not there to do it, we are seeing what they should have been all along. Of course, I don't necessarily believe the Nemesis. Maybe he's been turning their life bad after Jacob's touch to prevent them from being a candidate.

                                                  #8.14 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:43 PM EST
                                                  minklady

                                                  OK, I am just going to throw this out there:

                                                  I also think that Sawyer is an important player in all of this. When Dogen let Kate go find Sawyer, he said, "It's very important he gets back here safely”. Why would Dogen care one way or the other unless he knew, either by some spiritual way or from some other list, that Sawyer is important, either to the good side or the bad side, but important to the game/war.

                                                  Also, The song that was playing when Flocke found Sawyer in Dharmaville was from the Red Hot Chili Peppers “Search and Destroy”. The lyrics contain: I am a world's forgotten boy, The one who searches and destroys, Honey gotta help me please, Somebody gotta save my soul.So maybe he IS looking for Nem (or Jacob) to take his soul.

                                                  Lastly, when Sawyer said that all he want to do is go home, that could also mean "home to the Lord". I am not a religious person, but when someone dies, they say that they are "going home". I doubt that he knows what is going on, but he is smart enough, and enough of a con man to go along with the plan until he can sway it to his advantage.

                                                  P.S. Steve, thanks for spell check.

                                                    #8.15 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 PM EST
                                                    Lost in Space and Time

                                                    Just an FYI on continuity - the song couldn't be by the red hot chili peppers - the last time Sawyer was at the Darma village was in 1977. I pretty sure the band members were all in grade school in 1977, and I'm even surer that they never cut album in vinyl. They may have made a remake of a song from the 70's but it wouldn't be RHCP on the album Sawyer was playing.

                                                      #8.16 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:23 AM EST
                                                      pinkcap

                                                      That was the song, but the version we heard was done by Iggy Pop and The Stooges. My 13 year old son loves music and recognized the song immediately.

                                                      The opening lyrics are:

                                                      I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm / I'm the runaway son of the nuclear a-bomb / I am a world's forgotten boy / The one who searches and destroys.

                                                        #8.17 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:32 AM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        ranturn

                                                        Interesting episode. And it just keeps on getting more interesting on how the writers are inter-connecting everyone in the sideways world. Ben as a European History teacher? Rose hiring Locke? Though how she could hire him as a substitute teacher strikes me as very odd now as I write this. Was she on a Board of Education? I don't think so. I thought she was in human resources of a company. I also love the new Hurley. So confident and sure of himself.

                                                        Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                                                        Because Sawyer was touched by Jacob and Richard wasn't.

                                                        So many observations and questions to post:

                                                        Does anyone else feel that Ilana knows much more about the island and Jacob than she is letting on? I really would like to find out more about this. She definitely seems to be assuming a leadership position now.

                                                        Now we know that Locke's knives didn't end up on the island. Does that mean Oceanic found Christian's coffin as well?

                                                        Helen and Locke are planning on an October wedding. Is this wedding a year away? Because in the sideways world, Claire's sonogram date was in October and the flight landed in October as well.

                                                        Peace and Karma - that is what Helen's shirt said. Thought that was an interesting saying for her to be wearing considering what was going on with Locke/Nemesis on the island.

                                                        Nemesis and Sawyer descended “Jacob’s ladder” to get to Jacob’s cave in the bluff. That got me thinking of the term Jacob’s ladder. (It was a part of a string design that I used to make as a kid). As per Wickipedia, the definition of Jacob’s ladder is:

                                                        “Jacob's Ladder is a ladder to heaven, described in the Book of Genesis, which the biblical patriarch Jacob envisions during his flight from his brother Esau.”

                                                        This all plays into what everyone has said in prior posts about Jacob and Esau. That ladder has some huge significance. One of four interpretations suggests the ladder refers to reincarnation which is another theme that has been mentioned here. Here is the link for further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_Ladder.

                                                        Again, interesting that the writers put that ladder in there. I also liked how they showed the scale balancing two rocks and how Nemesis/Locke said it was an inside joke. So now that Nemesis took a rock off and threw it into the water, does this signify the power has shifted to him?

                                                        • 12 votes
                                                        Reply#9 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:15 PM EST
                                                        BlackRock Steve

                                                        ranturn....GREAT CATCH ON THE JACOB'S LADDER!!!!!!!

                                                        Yes, which ties to reincarnation which ties to Buddhism, ZEN (Dogen) and existential thought!!....The Truth is within; it is interconnectivity of all and with earth. Recognize this or be "lost", as is earth if man does not recognize the destiny of his interconnectivity to it.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #9.1 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:30 PM EST
                                                        blackwidow1

                                                        Helen and Locke are planning on an October wedding. Is this wedding a year away? Because in the sideways world, Claire's sonogram date was in October and the flight landed in October as well.

                                                        People were mentioning the date on the sonogram in Steve's column last week. I didn't notice it then but was rewatching the episode tonight and after I thought about it a little bit, I think that the 10/22/2004 date corresponds to Claire's due date not the date on which the sonogram was performed. Which would make sense as it is mentioned several times that she's 8 months pregnant when she gets on the flight. And I think its been established that the Sept 22, 2004 date was the date of the original (and this sideways) flight.

                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #9.2 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:35 PM EST
                                                        ranturn

                                                        BlackRock Steve: And since the new season began, that is what we have been seeing: interconnectivity of all and with earth (the island).

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #9.3 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:49 PM EST
                                                        BlackRock Steve

                                                        BlackRock Steve: And since the new season began, that is what we have been seeing: interconnectivity of all and with earth (the island).

                                                        Exactly what I was thinking....and why Jacob was reading "Everything that Rises Must Converge"....as must the timelines.

                                                        So now that Nemesis took a rock off and threw it into the water, does this signify the power has shifted to him?

                                                        Yes, note that he took the white rock off and threw it so this is now the time of the "blackrock"...the time of darkness which is why the Temple spring is dark...polluted so to speak. Also why the sunken island was blurry & bad effects...It was symbolic of what happens to the island IF whoever is the real "king/god" of darkness...NemLocke or Jacob, "wins" becasue the losties don't realize thier destiny and change "whatever happens/happens". We control our destiny rather than it is all predetermined by fate and your only lot in life is to just accept it.

                                                        • 6 votes
                                                        #9.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:12 AM EST
                                                        pinkcap

                                                        ranturn - Great catch about Jacob's ladder!

                                                        In answer to your question about Rose being able to hire a substitute, all school districts do things differently. Some hire their own, but some use a service that provides substitute teachers to all school districts in an area. Maybe in this new reality, Locke had some teaching credentials at one time.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #9.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:16 AM EST
                                                        blackwidow1

                                                        Time of the "blackrock" ... nice, very nice

                                                        The Blackrock was a slave ship. And if if that's not "darkness" enough - its filled with dangerous explosives that can end your life if you aren't careful (think Arzt!) ... a fitting analogy

                                                        Perhaps this time of the blackrock is cyclical ... the island has been living under the influence of one side and now the scales have been tipped to be influenced by the other side

                                                        and I agree ... its a big IF as to who is the king/god of darkness at this point

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #9.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:29 AM EST
                                                        lostinventura

                                                        I think throwing the white rock into the water signifies the lack of balance now that Jacob is dead. The fact that the scales were balanced while Jacob lived, indicates that its not a matter of the time of either the white rock or black rock-- but rather the time of balance. but i do think the use of a black rock was an obvious nod to Black Rock.

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        #9.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:31 AM EST
                                                        NCL70506

                                                        Does anyone else feel that Ilana knows much more about the island and Jacob than she is letting on? I really would like to find out more about this.

                                                        I agree. Jacob made a point to visit Ilana off-island at least once. She was the only one of the Ajira group of Others to enter Jacob's cabin, and she knew that he was no longer residing there and ordered the cabin to be burned to the ground. She somehow knew to bring the real John Locke's body to the Statue to show everyone the face of the enemy, and she knows that Nemesis is stuck looking like John Locke now. She knows they need to get to the Temple. She takes Jacob's ashes. Ilana is definitely "in the know."

                                                        One thing that I wondered about - why did she wait outside the Statue and let Bram and a few others go inside to check on Jacob? She seemed to be the leader up to this point, and I thought she would have been the first one going in to see what happened. Maybe she already knew that Jacob was dead and anyone who entered the Statue at that time would be subject to Nemesis' wrath. And maybe she knew that she had to carry on with the mission.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #9.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:50 AM EST
                                                        pinkcap

                                                        ranturn - Ilana does know more than she is letting on. I have to wonder if she is related to him in some way. She seems to know more than Richard. Maybe she's Jacob's child.

                                                          #9.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:46 PM EST
                                                          pinkcap

                                                          Black widow - thanks for clearing that up about the date on the sonogram. That was a bit confusing last week. It's been so long since I had one, but I do believe that they do input the due date into the machine and it appears on the screen.

                                                            #9.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:04 PM EST
                                                            Superman2001

                                                            Yeah, that makes sense. Another thing I noticed is that Randy, Locke's boss, said that Locke was supposed to be using his vacation time to get married "in October". Can't imagine that he meant one year from then, especially since most companies give you new vacation time every year.

                                                              #9.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:19 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              Inchiki

                                                              Greetings all,

                                                              Of all the survivors, it looks like Hurley was living large (excuse me if you think I was punning) in either timeline. On the Island, he got away from his bad fortune and was having a hell of an adventure. On the alternate timeline, he was a cool, Richard Branson-type gazillionaire. He'd be a worthy successor to be the Island's protector, the Island being the heart/soul of mankind. Okay, I just threw that out to see if it sticks.

                                                              As far as the questions.

                                                              • What did Nemesis want to ask Richard? To get information about what Jacob knew/planning. Unfortunately, Jacob never confided in Richard.
                                                              • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered? Bet everyone says Aaron. It is interesting that the child was light-headed but had neutral colored clothing but I'm wondering if this was the Island itself.
                                                              • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes? Take it to the temple, the Others (Dogen, master apothecary) know what to do with the ash.
                                                              • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for? People to attack the temple and get him off the Island.
                                                              • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't? He’s not one on the List as a potential protector.
                                                              • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead? With everyone dead, there will be no one to protect the Island. The nuclear warhead has the potential to destroy the Island but the timelines are not set, yet.
                                                              • Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning? Sawyer really has nothing to live for, so he’s doing this to find out who to blame for Juliet's death and get revenge.
                                                              • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims? Yes, he was. Like Jacob once was human, and so is Jacob's replacement.
                                                              • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore? Locke’s body was revealed, so Smoke loses the ability to “blind” people.
                                                              • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors? Higher the number, the greater potential to be Jacob's replacement.
                                                              • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island? Endless toil in some game? Why would anyone want this?
                                                              • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island? One of those wacky rules, like not killing each other (Smoke and Jacob). Or punching somebody when you see a Volkswagen.

                                                              Alrighty, folks, have a good one.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              Reply#10 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:16 PM EST
                                                              courtaboop

                                                              Maybe I'm missing/forgetting something, but why wasn't Kate mentioned on the list/the cave wall? She was the only one Jacob touched who wasn't mentioned on the list in this episode.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              Reply#11 - Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:57 PM EST
                                                              Jilie

                                                              actually Kate and Claire weren't mentioned - and maybe Sun

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #11.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:05 AM EST
                                                              Jilie

                                                              oh and don't forget desmond

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #11.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:09 AM EST
                                                              Pfemm

                                                              I'm thinking that only men have the ability to be come candidates.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #11.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:55 AM EST
                                                              mearth1961

                                                              Pfemm - If you are correct that only women can become candidates I wonder.... Women are often 'protectors' in mythology...but maybe in this situation, we will discover it is realtive to why women can't survive pregnancy on the Island? Maybe it's to safegaurd against Nem being able to be reborn in REAL human form (as opposed to a false one) and leave the Island?

                                                              • 3 votes
                                                              #11.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:52 AM EST
                                                              Pfemm

                                                              I think that the island didn't always have the pregnancy issues though...

                                                                #11.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:13 PM EST
                                                                courtaboop

                                                                But Claire and Desmond weren't touched by Jacob, right? And Kate was. If he touched them as a way to bring them to the island, and maybe to become his replacement, why wasn't Kate on the list?

                                                                Interesting bit on Lostpedia about all the names written in the cave:

                                                                http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Numbers_Cave

                                                                - According to the list, Littleton was written on the wall. Could be argued as either Claire or Aaron.

                                                                - If only men could be candidates, why would Jacob have written women's names on the cave wall?

                                                                  #11.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:31 PM EST
                                                                  mearth1961

                                                                  True - we see that Ethan and Aaron were born on Island but perhaps that changed at soeme point and for some reason. Ben was already being used by Nem to purge the DI and when he was Leader of the Others Ben was fixated on finding a cure for the pregnancy issue. Juliette was specifically brought to the Island because of it, and it's been in several Seasons so I think it's one of those questions we've had from the get-go that needs an answer. I suspect it was because Nem was seeking his loophole - if he could possess an infant invitro and take human form through birth he could leave the Island, so the Island, Jacob or whoever oversees the rules prevented it by preventing successful births? (not sure who/what)

                                                                  Since that avenue of escape didn't pan out his fallback is to try get someone (Richard or Sawyer) to volunteer their physical form?

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #11.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:44 PM EST
                                                                  Mike Johnson-1604544

                                                                  Ben was already being used by Nem to purge the DI and when he was Leader of the Others

                                                                  The others follow Jacob, not Nemesis. Good and bad is so skewed on this show.

                                                                    #11.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:01 PM EST
                                                                    kcjhawk

                                                                    The Others think they follow Jacob, but since Ben never saw him, it could have been Nemesis giving the orders all the time.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #11.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    pinkcap

                                                                    Finally, an episode with some answers. At first I thought the title, "The Substitute," was an indication of Locke's new job in 2004, but after some thought, I realized that the Nemesis was a substitute for Locke and according to the Nemesis, Jacob was looking for a substitute.

                                                                    Who was the child that Nemesis encountered? I think that this was Jacob. He appears as a child because that is his essence. He is the light side. A child is considered pure.

                                                                    What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?Protection until they can get to the temple.

                                                                    What is Nemesis "recruiting" for? Jacob has recruited many people. If the Nemesis was the one held captive in the cabin, he has been unable to gather his team.Now he needs to find people to help him.

                                                                    Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead? It's his only way to get off the island. He can't kill Sawyer, but he will find a way for someone else to. Once everyone is dead, he will be able to leave.

                                                                    Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning? Curiousity. He wants to know who to blame for Juliet's death. Maybe he feels the Nemesis can help him with this.

                                                                    Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims? Hard to say. His story to Sawyer about having emotions and losing someone he loved sounds like he was human, but it also sounds alot like Locke's story.

                                                                    Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore? I think that in this game that they're playing, once you show your hand, you have to play that hand.

                                                                    How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors? I'm not sure. My question is how did Dharma get a hold of these numbers? They put them on the hatch door and they were used as the input for the hatch's comuter. Rousseau also heard the numbers and Hurley heard them from a patient at the mental clinic. If the Others worked for Jacob, why would their enemies - the Dharma Initiative have these numbers? Was the Dharma Initiative the Nemesis' recruits at one time and Jacob's team defeated them and imprisoned the Nemesis? He couldn't kill him, so he kept him prisoner at the cabin.

                                                                    If what the Nemesis is saying is correct, then one of the O6 will take over. Maybe it's whoever is left standing. It is interesting that in the new reality of 2004, these people were not touched by Jacob and their lives took a different path. They made different choices and seem to be happier. Was there anybody else touched by Jacob and they are now crossed off?

                                                                    An interesting side note: while the Nemesis was searching for Sawyer, there was a record playing. My son told me the name of the song was "Search and Destroy" by Iggy Pop. It was an appropriate title for what the Nemesis was doing at the time. It seems to indicate that Richard is right and he means everyone harm. The Nemesis told the little boy not to tell him what he can't do when warned that he couldn't kill him. It's funny that in 2004, Locke is saying the same thing to the guy on the walkabout.

                                                                    I took notice to the shirt worn by Helen. It had a rose on it and the words peace and karma and tranquility were on it. After seeing John at the school, it looked like he found a place where he might be able to find some peace about his life. Rose was the one who directed him to this place.

                                                                    I have a question for everyone - when the Nemesis tossed the white stone into the ocean, he said it was an inside joke. Was it an inside joke for the fans who have been questioning the stones found in the first episode, or does it mean that the Nemesis intends to completely do away with the light side on the island, or does it refer to both?

                                                                    • 9 votes
                                                                    Reply#12 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:07 AM EST
                                                                    Inchiki

                                                                    Good question about the numbers. Mind you, this is all off the cuff, free associating, but given that this is a struggle between light and dark, each side must have a shot at the survivors because of the free will aspect. (The Dharma are probably unwitting allies of Nemesis, as leader Ben was duped.) As you point out the numbers had to be input into the computer or else something "bad" would happen. In this case, were the numbers keeping Jacob in check? It was the power being unleashed that brought Oceanic down in the first place, setting into motion these events.

                                                                    Since Locke is gone, Sayid is "infected", and Sawyer is with Nemesis, it seems that Nemesis has the upper hand. This was exemplified by Locke tossing the light stone out of the cave. Hugo and Jack may be with the Others, but Jack isn't cooperating. Both Kwons are have yet to choose and so are "still in play." (Maybe that is Jacob's loophole--42, Kwon is not one person but the couple. Maybe Jin and Sun stay to be the protector and whose remains are found in the cave.)

                                                                    By the way, I've a related question. Is part of the reason that Nemesis hates the game is that he was imprisoned on the Island and Jacob had the freedom to move about as he pleased?

                                                                    • 9 votes
                                                                    #12.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:32 AM EST
                                                                    BlackRock Steve

                                                                    How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors? I'm not sure. My question is how did Dharma get a hold of these numbers?....

                                                                    From all the posts & articles this season, I am beginning to think that I am in a "minority of one" in terms of my reaction to the first 5 mins. (MIB vs. Jacob) on the beach in last season's finale...and some scenes since, including last week when Dogen said to Jack "we were all brought to the island..." in answer to his question about if he was born there or how he got there. Jacob, and perhaps MIB, have always been bringing folks to the island...no one just "gets there"...as we have been shown for 5 seasons...there have been many recruits in recent decades, all examples of "recruits" that were brought to the island for the "game". What we haven't seen, other than the Blackrock, is all the other ships & recruits that were brought prior... Assume there have been other ships than the BlackRock, like Japanese fishing ships, etc....Did you see ALL the names all over that cave...they've been playing and bringing folks for eons...which is why NemLocke didn't recognize Sawyer's Steinbeck's "Of Mice & Men"....it wasn't written 100's of yrs. ago when he got there!

                                                                    Potential Recruits that Jacob and/or MIB have brought that we've seen:

                                                                    1. The army & scientist team in the 50's with Jughead (the ultimate free will "test")
                                                                    2. Dharma Initiative in the '70's (doctors, scientists, etc.)
                                                                    3. Rousseau & French expedition (note scientists again) in 1988.
                                                                    4. Plane crash of drug runners and Mr. Ecko's brother.
                                                                    5. Henry Gale, balloon explorer.
                                                                    6. Selected others: like Mikhail, who came in 1993
                                                                    7. The Kahana...Keamey & co. F.Y.I..."kahana" is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew word cohen, which means "priest" or also "leader". All Jewish priests came from the family of Levi, who was the son of Jacob!
                                                                    8. Oceanic 815
                                                                    9. Ajira 316

                                                                    The island moves; you don't get there by accident; you're brought there (or allowed to arrive there) by Jacob and/or NemLocke as a potential recruit.

                                                                    • 8 votes
                                                                    #12.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:54 AM EST
                                                                    BlackRock Steve

                                                                    BTW....and I forgot to list my #10....the best recruit or "candidate" of all....

                                                                    10. DESMOND....his sailboat just "happened" to run into the island in a storm...right!!!

                                                                    • 6 votes
                                                                    #12.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:15 AM EST
                                                                    blackwidow1

                                                                    Steve,

                                                                    If I am understanding what you are referring to, you are most definitely not in a minority of one. Before the season began, I commented on an article by Sebastian Palpatine in which I was questioning the prevalent assumption of Jacob's "goodness" and Nemesis's "evilness"

                                                                    Despite all this, I'm not quite convinced that at this point we can say for sure that Jacob is the "good guy" in this entire scenario. ... Jacob's adversary seems rather upset that another ship has been caught in the island's web (The Incident, Part I). He doesn't appear to want the destruction and violence and hatred to continue. Jacob is the one casting the net and delighting in the mayhem. Would a "good guy" want to bring people to the island just to play a deadly cosmic game all in the name of progress.

                                                                    All the people on the island are pawns in this game. However, differing from you, I think Jacob is the one bringing them. I don't honestly think that Nemesis has ANY control over the players. He plays the hand he's dealt.

                                                                    I have half an article written on this entire concept. Had hoped to have it posted by this past weekend but illness got in the way of my plans. I'm still chugging along and hope to have it up by this weekend.

                                                                    • 8 votes
                                                                    #12.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:22 AM EST
                                                                    Inchiki

                                                                    BlackRock Steve,

                                                                    I totally agree with you about the struggle being for a very long time. When Locke is explaining backgammon, he mentions that the game is over 5,000 years old. I think this is at least how long the struggle on the Island has been, which explains why there's an Egyptian statue on the beach . . . because Egyptians were brought to the Island at one point! (Hope this re-fuels the speculation that Richard is Egyptian, hehe.)

                                                                    To answer Pinkcap's question, my point is that the numbers are pivotal in the struggle. Both sides are trying to "claim" them, to use the numbers for their side, which is why the numbers appear as Oceanic's flight number and on the Dharma hatch. I didn't want to answer a question with a question, but do the numbers represent the individuals (John Locke, Jack Shepard, etc.) or do the individuals represent the numbers? In other words, maybe the numbers/survivors represent a duality of some deeper essence? Or like I said in a response to another post (#8.5), maybe I'm seeing meaning (patterns) where there aren't.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #12.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:37 AM EST
                                                                    BlackRock Steve

                                                                    Hey Pinkcap,

                                                                    I have a question for everyone - when the Nemesis tossed the white stone into the ocean, he said it was an inside joke. Was it an inside joke for the fans who have been questioning the stones found in the first episode, or does it mean that the Nemesis intends to completely do away with the light side on the island, or does it refer to both?

                                                                    I did not take it as an inside joke at the fans and the 2 small stones at the cave....I'm wondering if the "inside joke" is on us from the writers since everyone all just assumed Black = the dark side & evil and white = the "good side and Light. So, likewise I am not convinced Nemesis is the king/god of darkness but wonder if Jacob is. I am not sure who imprisoned whom in "Jacob's cabin"!? One could also interpret it, with a little more cynical view of man and his history...you'd be ready to quit too and want to "go home" if you recruited candidates and all they did was "...come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same."...in other words, you'd be tired of losing the game all the time!!??....which would be why NemLocke yelled how disappointed he was in all of Jacob's followers, and did anyone notice he was looking right at Ben when he said that....even though Ben had just killed Jacob as he asked him too....or, was that the test by actually the "god of Light" and Ben failed by killing Jacob!?

                                                                    Night all! =BRS

                                                                    • 6 votes
                                                                    #12.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:42 AM EST
                                                                    BlackRock Steve

                                                                    Hi blackwidow1 & Inchiki....Thanks for the comments!!

                                                                    bw1...I forgot about your comment on Sabastian's article: "Mommas Don't Let Your Baby Grow Up..." Highy agree. Also, note NemLocke's commnent to Richard of "What, he (meaning Jacob) never told you; I'd never do that..."

                                                                    Inchiki...I have to sleep on the numbers question...I've always wondered if we try to hard to make them more "mystical" than they are, but then....

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #12.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:54 AM EST
                                                                    pinkcap

                                                                    Wow! Inchiki, BRS, and Black widow - these are excellent replies!

                                                                    If Jacob is the one bringing everyone to the island, why do the Others treat them like enemy combatants? I do think that Jacob is bringing them to the island to be tested for something. It could be to join his team or to be his replacement like the Nemesis said. The Nemesis will lie to get his way so you can't believe everything he says, but he is right about Jacob not telling Richard everything. What exactly did Jacob tell the Others about new arrivals? Are the Others aware of why people are brought to the island? Are they instructed to fight them as a test or are they instructed to fight them to protect the island?

                                                                    In answer to Inchiki's question on if the Nemesis hates the game because he's imprisoned on the island, I'd have to say it's quite possible. I'm not sure if he was always a prisoner, but I do think he has been one for awhile. This game has been going on for a long time. We have only seen the Nemesis dissatisfied with the game when he was talking to Jacob when the Black Rock was arriving. Someone once wondered if the Nemesis was banished to the island and Jacob was his guard. I think this is plausible, but with all the references they make to games - chess, backgammon, risk, etc., I have to think that this is some game between the two and that the Nemesis is tired of playing it. If the Nemesis is telling the truth about Jacob trying to find a replacement, then it looks like he's tired of the game himself. Maybe they were both banished to the island and whoever wins the game gets to leave it.

                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                    #12.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:48 AM EST
                                                                    Pfemm

                                                                    i'm with you guys about the which side is "good" and which side is "evil"... (if any).... and The more the show goes on the more I question it....

                                                                    I agree that it seems odd for these writers to use such a blatant analogy with the black (evil) vs. white (good)..

                                                                    Also... {Side note} After Locke and Ben's meeting in the teacher's lounge... I wonder (and maybe hope) that Ben and Locke become friends.... :)

                                                                    I always thought they could be... if not for the whole underhanded, lieing, backstabbing attempted-murder-shooting then later strangling business.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #12.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:18 AM EST
                                                                    FortifiedHooligan

                                                                    I think that the inside joke was between MIB and Jacob. He killed Jacob and now went to Jacob's cave and chucked the his symbol out of that cave. I laughed out loud when he did that too. I have a gut feeling that he is not done recruiting, that some other folks are going to cross over. Maybe Kate, Jin, Miles? The only people I don't see doing that are Jack and Hurley.

                                                                    Also, if Claire is claimed, is she on FLocke's side? Are we forgetting that she is in this too?

                                                                      #12.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:34 AM EST
                                                                      mearth1961

                                                                      Although I've played Chess and Backgammon (sp?) I'm not that familiar with anything but the fundamentals, but I seem to recall that in Chess the position a piece sits on a board corresponds to a number?

                                                                      Re: the vision of the young boy. My first thought was it's Jacob and when he says You can't kill him, it's against the rules, he means Sawyer (or Richard). We have focused on the Nem/Jacob dynamic but if they are playing by rules, it seems to me that there is another entity that they BOTH answer to who set up those rules?...and perhaps the boy was an incarnation of that entity and he was REALLY saying "it's against the rules to kill JACOB", even using a loophole? Technically Ben did the deed, but since it was orchestrated through deceit by Nem, maybe his loophole isn't really a loophole?

                                                                      • 6 votes
                                                                      #12.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:14 PM EST
                                                                      mynamewastaken

                                                                      BRS,

                                                                      When NemLocke was speaking to Richard he also said "I wouldn't have kept you in the dark". I wondered if he was being sarcastic or if that was a hint that Jacob was the darkness and a manipulator. Still tough to call right now. I'm definitely guilty of overthinking all of the symbolism

                                                                        #12.12 - Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:57 PM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        TJG-LostGeek

                                                                        Wow!!!! What an episode...

                                                                        Mind Blowing!!!

                                                                      • What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?
                                                                      • I think he wanted to know from Richard why he was following Jacob when Jacob never told him why he needed was following his orders.

                                                                      • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?
                                                                      • Jacob or Aaron...not sure.

                                                                      • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?
                                                                      • I think she believes they are protection from Nemesis

                                                                      • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?
                                                                      • Help in getting off the island.

                                                                      • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?
                                                                      • Sawyer is a candidate.

                                                                      • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?
                                                                      • I don't know...

                                                                      • Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?
                                                                      • He really wants to know why he is on the island and he feels he has nothing else to lose now that he's lost Juliet.

                                                                      • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?
                                                                      • I think so...I believe that he was brought to the island, much like Richard, and the survivors of 815. I think that Richard was granted eternal life as long has he helped Jacob by fulfilling a certain purpose on the island, and I believe Nemesis was promised something similar in return for protection, but Nemesis grew tired and cynical about the whole thing and wanted to kill Jacob to stop everything but couldn't because of his agreement (loophole).

                                                                      • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?
                                                                      • Not sure on this...

                                                                      • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?
                                                                      • Seat numbers?

                                                                      • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?
                                                                      • Maybe the island is truly special where people go through things to change and evolve and Jacob is protecting it from the being found and tarnished by humanity.

                                                                      • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?
                                                                      • Not sure on this one either...perhaps as a host

                                                                        Also, Anjillina, I noticed about Kate not being on the list...I thought that was interesting...I think it was Jin, not Sun...because she didn't go back to 1977, she stayed in 2007...just a thought...

                                                                        Thanks for your posts...they're all great!!!! Have a Great Wednesday!

                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                        Reply#13 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:17 AM EST
                                                                        FortifiedHooligan

                                                                        Kate was on Jacob's new list that came in the ankh but not on the wall (that they showed us). Not sure what the significance of that is, but I just thought about it

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #13.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 AM EST
                                                                        Lostie Girl

                                                                        "...I think it was Jin, not Sun...because she didn't go back to 1977"

                                                                        I was wondering the same thing. I still haven't figured out why she didn't go back with the others. What makes her different?

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #13.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:00 PM EST
                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                        I have two proposals about Kate not being on the list. My favorite is that either Sawyer or Jack will end up as Island Keeper and replace Jacob and Kate will become that person's right hand as Richard was to Jacob.

                                                                        The other is that she is only in play to pit Jack and Sawyer against each other. I hope this isn't true because she was integral in helping Claire give birth to Aaron and saving Ben when he was shot, so she should have some higher purpose.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #13.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:07 PM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        Psybrchick

                                                                        WHOA!!! It just keeps getting better! It's been so long since there's been a nod to the numbers, love how suddenly they are back in the forefront.

                                                                        What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

                                                                        Not sure; perhaps something about how the ash blocks him, or something Jacob related.

                                                                        Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?

                                                                        I think it’s the version of Jacob when they first met. Of course, this assumes that they were children together (kind of like Cain and Abel).

                                                                        What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?

                                                                        To give them to the new protector? Or to use them as defense against Flocke.

                                                                        What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?

                                                                        His own band of brothers to defend against whomever Jacob was referring to when he said “they’re coming”.

                                                                        Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                                                                        Sawyer has been touched, but Richard hasn’t. To be honest, I don’t think we really know that Richard has ever actually seen and/or met Jacob. Also, the “rule” that the boy refers to may be that Nemesis cannot kill anyone that Jacob has touched (more later).

                                                                        Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?

                                                                        When we first met Nemesis on the beach with Jacob, he talked about Jacob trying to prove him wrong and that “they come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, it always ends the same.” He wants everyone dead so that once and for all he can prove Jacob wrong; if no one is alive, then no one can find the island. He may have tried before (Dharma “cleansing that Ben made happen), but it would seem that one permanent way to ensure that no one can find or get to the island would be for it to sink to the ocean floor.

                                                                        Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?

                                                                        Sawyer has lost his faith in everyone and everything. Not only does he not heed Richard’s warning, he knows from the beginning that Nemesis is NOT the real Locke. Either Sawyer is just along for the ride, or he is looking for some redemption for being responsible for Juliet’s death.

                                                                        Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?

                                                                        Most likely yes, as was Jacob.

                                                                        Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?

                                                                        Maybe due to Locke being touched by Jacob; if Jacob’s touch protects the receiver from harm from Nemesis, and if he REALLY wants off the island, then he can’t go back as a dead man. But he also cannot do anything to harm himself.

                                                                        How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?

                                                                        Like they were going to tell us THAT right away!!! I don't think it is the seat assignments (Jack was in 23B, in the front of the plane), but the fact that Kate does not have a number leads me to believe the 42 is for Jin, as that would make ALL the numbers male. (Could it be connected with the skeletons that Jack and Kate found in season 1 ep 4(Locke “Our own Adam and Eve)? One of them did have a satchel with a black and white gemstone in it)

                                                                        What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?

                                                                        Not sure that Nemesis telling the truth on that one, and he showed off a lot in not clearly or completely answering questions (e.g. Jacob died but not that he was responsible for his death) So, no real answer from me here.

                                                                        Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

                                                                        He can’t harm himself, but much like he killed Jacob through Ben, he needs someone else to end his life so he can inhabit their body.

                                                                        Again, love this show, can't wait for all the answers, but will be sad when this weekly mental challenge goes awa for good. Interstingly, I can't help but see so many things that are almost biblical ... and I am not a very religious person (nothing wrong with it, just saying it's not something I am actively looking for in this show, so please no haters).

                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                        Reply#14 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:47 AM EST
                                                                        NCL70506

                                                                        the fact that Kate does not have a number leads me to believe the 42 is for Jin, as that would make ALL the numbers male

                                                                        I wondered about this after not seeing Kate Austen's name in the cave, and Nemesis not knowing if Kwon refers to Jin or Sun. There were so many names written though, that I guess it's possible her name is there but we were not shown it. But, the 6 numbers are already accounted for. So, if the numbers are absolutely connected to the candidates, then Kate appears to be out of the running.

                                                                        That makes me question a few things: Why was Kate one of the main characters on the show? Why did Jacob touch her? Why was she on Jacob's other list with Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley and then captured by the Others? Why was she one of the Oceanic Six? Why was it necessary for her to return to the Island, other than to recreate the events of flight 815 as much as possible? Why would a female not be a candidate?

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #14.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:10 AM EST
                                                                        OnlyChild

                                                                        When Sawyer and Kate took young Ben to Richard for the "treatment", Richard looked at her with great interest and said "Who is this?" Because she was nice to look at or something else?

                                                                          #14.2 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:36 AM EST
                                                                          FortifiedHooligan

                                                                          I think he was surprised/pissed that Sawyer brought someone else out to them. I don't think this is a case of him recognizing her or having deja vu, but more of a "what the hell are you doing man?!?" moment

                                                                            #14.3 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:23 AM EST
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            loster815

                                                                            Maybe the ladder scene was so flocke could 'touch' sawyer...like Jacob touched all the others.

                                                                              Reply#15 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:36 AM EST
                                                                              mearth1961

                                                                              and also to con him into trusting him, since he just basically saved him?

                                                                                #15.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:19 PM EST
                                                                                say what??

                                                                                I think the cave has another entrance and that is how they will leave. The ladder was there to test/reinforce Sawyer's trust in Nemesis - he has to have lots of trust to make such a precarious descent. We know Smokey can fly around and it would be no problem for him to fly to the cave (of course, if it was Jacob's cave Smokey might have been prohibited from entering). We don't know Jacob's locomotion abilities but I can't imagine the only way was the dangerous ladder method.

                                                                                  #15.2 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:37 AM EST
                                                                                  Psybrchick

                                                                                  Has anyone else put together that Nemesis and Sawyer climbed down a ladder to Jacob's cave ... so wouldn't it be Jacob's Ladder?

                                                                                    #15.3 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:09 PM EST
                                                                                    Superman2001

                                                                                    Nice.

                                                                                      #15.4 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      lostinventura

                                                                                      I love when Lost episodes are this exciting in the first 5 minutes.

                                                                                      It probably has little significance, but I was shocked that Locke's dad apparently had nothing to do with him being "trapped" in the wheelchair in the sideways universe. All a long I understood that the sideways universe was a "what happened" look at the Oceanic 815 passengers if they never crashed, but I didn't realize it was a look at how their pasts were different too.

                                                                                      What was more significant to me is that this "new" Locke doesn't seem pathetic, like the "original" Locke. I asume this is partially due to him not being broken by his father's actions. BUt the original Locke would not have been so assertive, or maybe it's better to say the new Locke didn't seem scared (i.e. willing to have a healthy relationship with Helen, etc.).

                                                                                      Although I'm sure Locke would like to not be paralyzed in the sideways universe, I wonder if this episode was more of a hint that his life wouldn't be as pathetic if Jacob never touched John, or the other passengers. So really this sideways universe is a look at how their lives would be wthout any interference from either Jacob or Nemesis.

                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                      Reply#16 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:58 AM EST
                                                                                      NCL70506

                                                                                      Nice reference to the real John Locke being "trapped" in the wheelchair, like Nemesis is "trapped" on the Island. I was surprised to hear Helen talking about Locke's dad coming to the wedding. It brings into question exactly how John became paralyzed in this flash sideways, since it was originally due to his father throwing him through a window from the 8th floor of a building.

                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                      #16.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:18 AM EST
                                                                                      goodnuf

                                                                                      Isn't this a not to "what happens, happens." Meaning that Locke was destined to end up in a wheelchair. It doesn't really matter how it happens because it will happen one way or another.

                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                      #16.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:47 AM EST
                                                                                      Pfemm

                                                                                      Isn't this a not to "what happens, happens." Meaning that Locke was destined to end up in a wheelchair. It doesn't really matter how it happens because it will happen one way or another.

                                                                                      I concur... the sideways flashes are showing us lots of happenings that were unavoidable no matter where the characters ended up.

                                                                                      • Locke in a wheelchair
                                                                                      • Claire and Ethan with needles
                                                                                      • Kate escaping
                                                                                      • Jack saves Charlie
                                                                                      • Jack "loses" his dad's coffin
                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                      #16.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:38 PM EST
                                                                                      Brian Ford

                                                                                      Except, that seems to indicate that only "some things that happen, happen."

                                                                                      Other things appear to happen completely differently, or not at all.

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #16.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:45 PM EST
                                                                                      Anjillina

                                                                                      Well and also, to be completely accurate, Jacob didn't touch John Locke (that we were shown anyway) until after he was pushed out the window by his father. So you wouldn't think that would have changed just because he wasn't touched. However, if the island blowing up and ceasing to exist in 1977 was actually the catalyst that changed everything, then the change in Locke's past becomes more plausible to me. Because at that point Jacob and Nemesis were no longer on the island playing their game and not only couldn't affect the Losties, but also the generation prior to them. Which would explain how Locke's life changed for the better (maybe Nemesis touched his father and caused his evil?) and also Sawyer (no evil Locke's father = no con on Sawyer's parents and therefore no murder/suicide).

                                                                                        #16.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:18 PM EST
                                                                                        NCL70506

                                                                                        Brian Ford - I agree with you completely.

                                                                                        goodnuf - I think that each character has a destiny and there will be similarities in their various "timelines" because of this destiny. Kate was destined to be a fugitive, Jack was destined to be a spinal surgeon, etc. And yes, John Locke was destined to be in a wheelchair. But it matters to me how the differences occurred, particularly with how Locke got paralyzed. John Locke's character is/was so important to this show, including being healed by the Island and his many issues with his father. Since the producers/writers are bothering to show us this "flash sideways" of their lives, I would like to know more. You may be content with "whatever happens, happens" but I want answers, darn it!!

                                                                                          #16.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:58 PM EST
                                                                                          kcjhawk

                                                                                          Even if Jacob only touched John when he was older, which could have been erased by the island being underwater after 1977, we still saw Richard visit him when he was little.

                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                          #16.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                                                                                          lostinventura

                                                                                          I wonder if Sawyer's parents are alive in the sideways universe, and that's why we will find him on the other side of the law? but i agree with those comments above that Locke's daddy issues and paralysis have played such a big role in his character development--same goes with Sawyer's parents being killed-- that this difference in the realities seems rather important.

                                                                                          I wonder if, in the sideways universe, Richard never went to see Locke to "test" him when Locke was a child.

                                                                                          I also thought it was funny when Helen told Locke that it may be destiny that he met Jack at the airport lost baggage office.

                                                                                            #16.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST
                                                                                            Pfemm

                                                                                            You may be content with "whatever happens, happens" but I want answers, darn it!!

                                                                                            I'm also very interested in knowing how things that are meant to happen happened differently. Because the how seems to affect the personalities of the characters. They're happier. They make similar choices but like Locke and his job/trip ... he seems much better at coping. and Hurley is on cloud 9 and buying up all kinds of companies with his fortunes.

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #16.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST
                                                                                            goodnuf

                                                                                            NCL - but I want answers, darn it!!

                                                                                            I can appreciate that, but I also have to realize(for my sanity) that they won't be able to answer all our questions. So I'm willing to settle with certain parts of their lives being their destiny.

                                                                                            Locke's in a wheel chair, Hurley still wins the lottery, Kate's still arrested.

                                                                                            It is what is is.

                                                                                              #16.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:12 PM EST
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              OnlyChild

                                                                                              OK - absolutely off the wall premise here - which will no doubt be disproved next week, as my "best" theories always are. Just for fun, here it is. When Juliet said "it worked" she was referring to Jacob being killed, Sawyer knew what she meant and that's why he left the temple, so Nemesis could find him. That's why he got Kate out of there. It isn't curiosity that's on his mind, it's some kind of revenge. He has a plan too.

                                                                                              And I loved the scene of Ben with the coffee maker and also the handicap lift that wouldn't work.

                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                              Reply#17 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:42 AM EST
                                                                                              Superman2001

                                                                                              Cheers:

                                                                                              • Plot development. Nothin' like it.
                                                                                              • Ben's eulogy.
                                                                                              • I like Happy Hugo. I was telling my wife it would be great if he were skinny in the sideways flash.
                                                                                              • Richard Alpert being terrified.
                                                                                              • Sawyer drunk.
                                                                                              • Bad Locke is just like Locke. Sure, he can fly around the Island as a pillar of smoke, but don't tell him what he can't do!

                                                                                              Jeers:

                                                                                              • Why do they need to bury John Locke? Just get to the temple!
                                                                                              • Why is this show only one hour long?!

                                                                                              The Big Questions:

                                                                                              • What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

                                                                                              I can't imagine what he meant by that. Perhaps he wants to know how Richard got out of the chains. Or maybe who the leading candidate is, now that John Locke is dead.

                                                                                              • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?

                                                                                              I immediately thought that it was a young Jacob, and it reminded me of Walt appearing to John Locke after Ben shot him and left him in the Dharma pit. This kid knows the rules, so he's not just some snot-nosed brat running around the jungle. He's relevant.

                                                                                              • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?

                                                                                              Are those ashes going to be able to keep the smoke monster at bay? Maybe the temple people can do something with them?

                                                                                              What became clear to me at that moment, though, is that Ilana knew a whole heck of a lot more about the Island than I had ever realized. She was on Ajira 316 to get back to the Island, which makes me wonder how she knew to get on that flight, how she knew that Sayid needed to go back with her, how she knew that she'd land in 2007, or if she knew that Jack and Co. would land in 1977. How did she get all this information.

                                                                                              • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?

                                                                                              Seems like he needs someone to do his dirty work for him. He couldn't kill Jacob.

                                                                                              • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                                                                                              I don't think the boy that Bad Locke saw the first time was real. He was all bloody, and the next time he appeared, when Sawyer saw him, he was. Like when Ana Lucia showed up to Eko and told him to help John find the question mark.

                                                                                              • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?

                                                                                              I said a couple of weeks ago that I think maybe the reason the MIB was on the Island was because he and Jacob had some sort of wager regarding the true nature of man, and until it was settled, one way or the other, they both had to stay on the Island. If everyone is dead, and no one else is coming to the Island, maybe then he can go home.

                                                                                              • Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?

                                                                                              Bad Locke is smooth. He can talk anyone out of their pants.

                                                                                              • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?

                                                                                              I don't know how that would be possible. But then again, Richard doesn't age for some reason. (Maybe Sayid is the new Richard, not the new Jacob. ???)

                                                                                              • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?

                                                                                              Because Jacob is dead?

                                                                                              • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?

                                                                                              That's one of those things that I don't even have the brain power to try to compute right now. But we did see that John's number was present in his sideways life. He directed the class to turn to chapter four of their books, and there were a few other things I noticed, but I won't say until the trivia question is posted. I'm also gonna go back to the premiere and see if Jack's number is in his sideways life.

                                                                                              • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?

                                                                                              I would imagine that he's protecting the Island from the MIB, although he can't very well do that now that he's dead.

                                                                                              • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

                                                                                              He can't cross the ash around the temple, but Sawyer can.

                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                              #18 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:11 AM EST
                                                                                              Mike Johnson-1604544

                                                                                              yes, why did they need to bury locke? and all the way back at losty cemetary? I'm pretty sure that would have been quite the trek from the foot statue.

                                                                                                #18.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:03 AM EST
                                                                                                Jilie

                                                                                                And I thought it was funny that SUn and the pilot didn't help with lugging Lock to the cemetery - when it was Sun's idea

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #18.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:18 AM EST
                                                                                                Shaun Guidolin

                                                                                                What became clear to me at that moment, though, is that Ilana knew a whole heck of a lot more about the Island than I had ever realized. She was on Ajira 316 to get back to the Island, which makes me wonder how she knew to get on that flight, how she knew that Sayid needed to go back with her, how she knew that she'd land in 2007, or if she knew that Jack and Co. would land in 1977. How did she get all this information.

                                                                                                As I posted above I'm guessing she's related to somebody very important, either Jacob, Nemesis or maybe Widmore - assuming he still matters..

                                                                                                • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?

                                                                                                I don't think the boy that Bad Locke saw the first time was real. He was all bloody, and the next time he appeared, when Sawyer saw him, he was. Like when Ana Lucia showed up to Eko and told him to help John find the question mark.

                                                                                                I'd say that's a pretty big assumption .. I think it was pretty clear that the writers wanted to show that Sawyer could see him, but Richard couldn't

                                                                                                • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?

                                                                                                He can't cross the ash around the temple, but Sawyer can.

                                                                                                Good point on this one .. Sawyer can go places that Nemesis cannot, I never thought about this fact.

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #18.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:03 AM EST
                                                                                                opus_rma
                                                                                                • I like Happy Hugo. I was telling my wife it would be great if he were skinny in the sideways flash.

                                                                                                that would be so cool. however, i had this visual of his head being superimposed over some slender guy's body. like a george lopez flashback to his youth with his oversized head.

                                                                                                ebrrbrebrbrbrb, makes me shudder.

                                                                                                  #18.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:08 AM EST
                                                                                                  Superman2001

                                                                                                  This is a big question that I just realized Steve didn't include: What happened to Locke so that he's in a wheelchair, but he's still with Helen? She said that she wanted to elope and just have her parents and his father there, so obviously Anthony Cooper - his dad - didn't push him out of a window. And since they are still together, he didn't follow his dad around like a crazy person, which is what led to Helen leaving him. So what happened? How did he get in the wheelchair?

                                                                                                  And same kind of questions for Rose and Hurley (I'd say Ben, too, but I think it's obvious that he and Roger left in the evacuation, same as Ethan and Miles and Charlotte did.) But weren't Rose and Bernard living in New York? They met when he was helping her get her car out of the snow. How are they in LA now? And why is Hurley lucky, instead of unlucky? I'm guessing it has something to do with the numbers possibly changing, but we haven't gotten any kind of word on it, yet.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #18.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:00 PM EST
                                                                                                  Superman2001

                                                                                                  I'd say that's a pretty big assumption .. I think it was pretty clear that the writers wanted to show that Sawyer could see him, but Richard couldn't

                                                                                                  It is definitely a big assumption. But either the writers wanted us to know that Richard couldn't see him but Sawyer could, or they wanted us to know that he wasn't real the first time. The only thing that convinces me that it's the latter and not the former is that the kid had blood on him at first, and didn't later.

                                                                                                  Throw back to Walt. How did he appear in the jungle to Shannon and Sayid, and later to Locke? I wonder what the writers are going to do with his character.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #18.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:03 PM EST
                                                                                                  loster815

                                                                                                  didn't bad locke talk Sawyer into putting his pants on?

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #18.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:31 PM EST
                                                                                                  Anjillina

                                                                                                  See post by me above - I think that the destruction of the island stopped not only Jacob and Nemesis from interfering with the Losties, but also stopped their interference with the prior generation (Locke's Dad, therefore by extension Sawyer's parents - possibly Christian Shepherd - possibly Hurley's Dad who abandoned the family - possibly Sun's Dad who was an evil mobster). I think this goes along with the theory most of us seem to agree on that they (Jacob and Nemesis) have been playing this "game" a long long time and if their screwing with people was stopped in 1977, it would have had long term providential benefits for many of our beloved Losties. It's almost like Nemesis controlled the pre-Lostie generation and Jacob was trying to somehow "fix" the Losties by bringing them to the island in order to repair what Nemesis had already broken in their childhoods.

                                                                                                    #18.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:24 PM EST
                                                                                                    kcjhawk

                                                                                                    "So why do they need to bury John Locke?"

                                                                                                    So he can rise from the dead in three days

                                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                                    #18.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:24 PM EST
                                                                                                    kcjhawk

                                                                                                    And if he sees his shadow, there will be six more eons of Darkness.

                                                                                                    • 7 votes
                                                                                                    #18.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:26 PM EST
                                                                                                    Superman2001

                                                                                                    I figured that the Island not being in play since 1977 has something to do with it. I'd like to see the turn of events, though.

                                                                                                    And about Jacob fixing what had been broken, I don't see that. Kate is still wanted for murder. Jack still has daddy issues. Sun and Jin are still messed up. Locke's life isn't all that great, even though his dead apparently didn't steal his kidney and try to kill him. Claire is still giving her kid up. We don't know what Sawyer's deal is, but he was in Australia for something, and it very well may have been to kill someone -- and if the changes are post 1977, well then that's a year after Sawyer's parents died, and he's likely still messed up. Rose still has terminal cancer, which happened after 1977. Really, the most drastic change is Hurley being lucky, but he still won the lottery, so how much of that is just mental?

                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                    #18.11 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:29 PM EST
                                                                                                    Anjillina

                                                                                                    Oh I disagree. Can't tell about Jack yet - his father is dead and he's supposed to be bringing the body to the funeral - but that's all we know so far on him. Kate - was arrested for SOMETHING. But when Claire asked her what, she said "would you believe me if I told you I was innocent?" That doesn't sound like original Kate. Original Kate would have told her none of her business or told her what she actually did. What if she's actually under arrest this time for something she didn't do? It's possible. Sun/Jin - yes, they don't seem different - yet. We haven't seen much. Claire - WAS going to give her kid up - seems to have changed her mind and named him Aaron last week. Sawyer - was definitely changed. He warned Hurley on the plane to be careful about who he tells about the lottery - that some folks would have taken advantage of him. Old Sawyer would have been the one doing it. Rose - has cancer but is happily married to Bernard and playing smoochy on the plane (unlike original couple who Rose told Jack were having problems). Locke has relationship with Dad and is happy with his woman. Charlie tries to kill himself. Shannon isn't even on the plane. Boone isn't dead. There are TONS of changes on the new LA line. And I hope they're real because that would be cool.

                                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                                    #18.12 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST
                                                                                                    kcjhawk

                                                                                                    "What became clear to me at that moment, though, is that Ilana knew a whole heck of a lot more about the Island than I had ever realized. She was on Ajira 316 to get back to the Island, which makes me wonder how she knew to get on that flight, how she knew that Sayid needed to go back with her, how she knew that she'd land in 2007, or if she knew that Jack and Co. would land in 1977. How did she get all this information."

                                                                                                    She was badly hurt and in a hospital when Jacob came to see her and said: "I need your help." I think the plan was set in motion then.

                                                                                                      #18.13 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST
                                                                                                      Superman2001

                                                                                                      Oh I disagree. Can't tell about Jack yet - his father is dead and he's supposed to be bringing the body to the funeral - but that's all we know so far on him. Kate - was arrested for SOMETHING. But when Claire asked her what, she said "would you believe me if I told you I was innocent?" That doesn't sound like original Kate. Original Kate would have told her none of her business or told her what she actually did. What if she's actually under arrest this time for something she didn't do? It's possible. Sun/Jin - yes, they don't seem different - yet. We haven't seen much. Claire - WAS going to give her kid up - seems to have changed her mind and named him Aaron last week. Sawyer - was definitely changed. He warned Hurley on the plane to be careful about who he tells about the lottery - that some folks would have taken advantage of him. Old Sawyer would have been the one doing it. Rose - has cancer but is happily married to Bernard and playing smoochy on the plane (unlike original couple who Rose told Jack were having problems). Locke has relationship with Dad and is happy with his woman. Charlie tries to kill himself. Shannon isn't even on the plane. Boone isn't dead. There are TONS of changes on the new LA line. And I hope they're real because that would be cool.

                                                                                                      Jack's father died in Sydney, same as before. Not sure what had him in Sydney, but Jack seems just as anxious to get the funeral over with as he was before.

                                                                                                      Kate told the mechanic who helped her out of her handcuffs that she was wanted for murder. And when Mars is going through customs at the airport, he says all he has to declare is a murderer.

                                                                                                      Sun and Jin still came to LA to give the watch away. Jin is still a jerk who doesn't know that his wife knows English, and Sun probably still cheated on him. Assumptions, sure, but things look the same.

                                                                                                      Claire didn't have her baby on the Island because she never went there, but her boyfriend evidently still left her. And she still names the baby Aaron.

                                                                                                      Sawyer did warn Hugo, but again, he was in Australia for a reason, and his parents died before 1977, so he could have still been looking for Tom Sawyer. And just because he warned Hugo about someone trying to con him doesn't mean he wasn't trying to con him. First step is to gain the mark's trust. Con man is short for "confidence man".

                                                                                                      Rose told Bernard that the healer worked, when he really didn't, in order to get him to stop trying to find a cure. She told him the truth only when he was trying to build a sign to get them rescued. They weren't having marital problems, and she never said that they were. They were just as lovey-dovey in the first sequence as they were in this one. Difference now is that they've come back from Australia, and Rose has admitted to someone else (John Locke) that she does still have cancer, so maybe she told Bernard the truth.

                                                                                                      Locke's in better shape, but he's not in particularly great shape. He's still mad and full of self pity. He still got denied his walkabout and screamed at the travel agent. He still has a jerkwad boss. The only real difference is that he has a relationship with his father, but even if his dad didn't push him out the window, he's still somehow a hopeless paraplegic. The end result is the same, to this point.

                                                                                                      Boone isn't dead because he didn't go to the Island.

                                                                                                      Charlie was still a heroin addict, he was still in Australia, presumably to get Liam to get back with the band, and he still came back by himself.

                                                                                                      Shannon isn't on the plane, but she's still in a bad relationship in Australia.

                                                                                                      The only one who is really different is Hugo, but that's just because he says he's different.

                                                                                                      Some of this stuff is different, but we're really talking about minor differences, some of them simply because the plane didn't crash on the Island. And my main contention was that if Jacob's objective was to 'fix their broken childhoods', well, that hasn't happened.

                                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                                      #18.14 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:09 PM EST
                                                                                                      pinkcap

                                                                                                      Superman - I have to agree with anjillina on this one. We have not seen everything about the characters in the other reality. In this reality Jacob did not touch them. I believe that when Jacob touched them he affected their lives. FLocke said Jacob manipulated them to bring them to the island, but I don't believe FLocke is telling the whole truth. The Nemesis could have discovered them and decided to influence their lives too. Either way, when brought to the island, their true path and character emerged. If they were never selected to be a candidate, then their lives would develop without interference from Jacob or the Nemesis. We have seen Hurley as a different person. He's lucky. In the present reality, Hurley is now coming to realize he is blessed. The two Hurleys are becoming the same.

                                                                                                      In Kate's parallel reality, she is on the run, but she does say she is innocent. We have not seen what she was arrested for, so we can't judge her yet. In both worlds she is always on the run, but she does stop to help someone in need, even if it means risking her freedom.

                                                                                                      Locke is in a wheel chair, but we don't know if he was injured in the same way. He did not break up with Helen over his obsession with his father because if he's coming to the wedding, then they have a relationship. It now looks like he has found a job that he feels comfortable with and it looks like he will have a friendship with Ben.

                                                                                                      I read that Sawyer will be on the right side of the law in this world. That would parallel his stint as head of security. Locke's father might have been chosen once too. He was brought to the island and tied up on the Black Rock. If he wasn't chosen, then maybe he didn't con people and Sawyer's parents never died. I'm sure we'll find out when we see the episode on Sawyer.

                                                                                                      As for Jin and Sun - we don't know what their relationship is yet. We don't even know if Sun can speak English. It's a wait and see on that one.

                                                                                                      Rose - a different path led her to California. She does seem to be at peace with dying. Last time we saw her on the island, she was at peace with dying if the bomb went off.

                                                                                                      Yes, there are things that are still the same. I think there will be. Jacob's touch didn't turn their lives upside down, rather, they were able to make choices without any interference. We're seeing what those choices led to. I think we will see that each character's life is similar, but different.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #18.15 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:54 PM EST
                                                                                                      Superman2001

                                                                                                      All I'm saying is that everyone's life isn't dramatically different, and all that pained them before isn't made right. Things aren't "fixed" in this timeline. We haven't seen everything about them, and that's why seeing things that look different doesn't mean that they actually are different.

                                                                                                      I think that's especially true about Sawyer. He knew that Kate was a prisoner on the plane, as he saw her handcuffs. But he didn't hand her over to security in the elevator. He actually helped her out. Maybe he is on the right side of the law, but *if 1977 is our "change" date,* Sawyer's father still killed his mother and then himself because Tom Sawyer -- aka Anthony Cooper, aka Locke's dad -- conned them out of their money. He's still scarred in some way, he still wrote the letter about finding Tom Sawyer, and he's still coming back from Australia. Maybe he's not a con man out for blood, but the thing that catalyzed him to become a con man out for blood still happened, so let's wait and see.

                                                                                                      Kate says that she was wanted for murder, so we DO know what she was wanted for. She was still apprehended in Australia. She lied to Jacob as a little girl when she told him she'd never steal again.

                                                                                                      Locke is different, as far as causes go, apparently. But he's still in a wheelchair, and he's still a sad man who is obsessed with trying to prove that he can lead a normal life. That was clear when he tried to get out of the van on his own. I wondered before if he went on the walkabout, but not after I saw that. I said to my wife right then and there that he didn't. So there's differences there, but he's still not in the best shape. And his father was still a con man at one point, again assuming that our key date is 1977.

                                                                                                      Jin and Sun, I'm assuming on. Definitely. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that they don't have a good relationship. Jin is still infertile. He's still doing shady business, thus all the cash. And it certainly seemed like Sun knew what the customs agents were saying, because she asked Jin why he had all that money.

                                                                                                      Rose is married to Bernard, obviously. Same last name, we saw them together on the plane. She was at peace with dying when she met Bernard. That hasn't changed. Only thing that might be different is that she lives in California, not New York, but I was assuming that they lived in New York before. We saw them meet there. Don't know where they actually lived before going to Sydney.

                                                                                                      And Jacob's touch came after 1977 for most of the characters he touched. Jack, Sun and Jin, Sayid, most notably Locke, who he appeared to revive after being pushed out the window by his dad. So the touch isn't what changed things.

                                                                                                        #18.16 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:36 PM EST
                                                                                                        Superman2001

                                                                                                        Here's a screenshot of John's desk at work in this new timeline. There's a picture of John and Helen, and a picture of John and his dad. And yes, it's Anthony Cooper, so any possibility that he was raised by an adoptive family or something and we're talking about a different dad goes out the window.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #18.17 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:09 PM EST
                                                                                                        Superman2001

                                                                                                        Another thing about Jacob's touch: he didn't touch Sayid or Hurley until after they had come back from the Island. So the touch wouldn't be what changed Hurley into a lucky person, because it doesn't technically happen for three years.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #18.18 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:15 PM EST
                                                                                                        pinkcap

                                                                                                        Superman - I hear what you're saying, and you're right about us not knowing if they will be eventually happy. From what I've seen so far, it looks like some of the Losties' lives seem better than their lives when they originally borded the plane, especially Hurley. I thought Locke's life was the same until Tuesday's episode. Yes, he's in a wheelchair - that was his fate, can't change that, but his relationship with Helen and his father is good. The old Locke was miserable about losing Helen and his father not loving him. You're right, things could start getting bad for him starting now, but they could also get better. I prefer to think they will get better.

                                                                                                        Hurley's misfortune started with winning the lottery. He always felt it was because the numbers were cursed. He obtained the numbers from a man in the mental clinic where he was hospitalized. The man heard them from some transmission in the Pacific. If the island sunk, there would be no transmission and therefore no numbers that are cursed. Hurley's fate was to win the lottery and right now he's a happy man.

                                                                                                        I've always questioned the reason Sayid and Hurley were touched after they left the island.You have to wonder if Jacob touched other people. The show has always tried to show the connections between people. It could cause a huge domino effect if lives are different because of a touch or lack of touch. There are many names on that cave wall. What if he touched people like Locke's dad with the sole purpose of influencing them to act a certain way towards his candidates? If Locke's dad was a con man, maybe he gave that up when his son gave him his kidney? Maybe his dad was able to love Locke. It's just a theory. I'm not saying that this is the way it is, just trying to figure out why things would be different for people touched later in life.

                                                                                                          #18.19 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:53 AM EST
                                                                                                          Anjillina

                                                                                                          Superman - there's just as much chance that you're right as that I am. I'll be interested to see which way that timeline goes (if either). I still think Sawyer appear fundamentally changed to the core. Yes, I saw the whole Kate exchange as well and wondered. But I think that had more to do with him currently being either 1) undercover or 2) less likely, just attracted to Kate so let her go. But the whole Hurley exchange was so NOT original Sawyer. Goes out of his way to warn a stranger to be careful. Shows no further interest in him (therefore not likely to be running a con on him). It was something that nice, concerned people do in normal life. Not a Sawyer thing to do at all. And I still think something fundamental changed with Locke's father, otherwise Locke wouldn't have a relationship with him now. Since the Jacob/Nemesis exchange has been going on for such a long time, I really think it's possible that Locke's father was part of the original game on timeline one. I don't believe he was on current LA timeline. For whatever reason.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #18.20 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:18 AM EST
                                                                                                          Susanaree

                                                                                                          The changes we see in our Losties may be due to the fact that, although bad things have happened to them, they are not tortured by them. They so far have seemed to have found ways to deal productively, instead of destructively, with what life has handed them, except maybe for Kate. Perhaps we'll see that her mother supports her action, or that it's a clear-cut case of self-defense.

                                                                                                          This could be why Sayid was so terrified of the torture - he is again innocent (like Richard saying Ben would never be the same - he would lose his innocence in the spring - Sayid gained his innocence in the spring). Sayid has been cleansed of his burden of guilt, and perhaps his memory of it as well.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #18.21 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:48 PM EST
                                                                                                          Superman2001

                                                                                                          Superman - I hear what you're saying, and you're right about us not knowing if they will be eventually happy. From what I've seen so far, it looks like some of the Losties' lives seem better than their lives when they originally borded the plane, especially Hurley. I thought Locke's life was the same until Tuesday's episode. Yes, he's in a wheelchair - that was his fate, can't change that, but his relationship with Helen and his father is good. The old Locke was miserable about losing Helen and his father not loving him. You're right, things could start getting bad for him starting now, but they could also get better. I prefer to think they will get better.

                                                                                                          ...

                                                                                                          What if he touched people like Locke's dad with the sole purpose of influencing them to act a certain way towards his candidates? If Locke's dad was a con man, maybe he gave that up when his son gave him his kidney? Maybe his dad was able to love Locke. It's just a theory.

                                                                                                          Thoughts on this: First of all, Locke's dad stealing his kidney is what led to him meeting Helen in the first place, and the anger management meeting. We're really talking about some fundamental changes over the last several years with John Locke and his relationship with his father. And those changes are what have affected his relationship with Helen, who he was apparently destined to meet one way or the other. And maybe he was also destined to be in a wheelchair, and it's up to him to come to grips with his destiny, but I don't like that idea, because -- like Rose -- the Island fixed that. That's special, and I don't like the idea that those miracles just go away. Walkabout is really the best episode in the entire series, and S.O.S. is special also. I'm not sold on the idea that the universe's course correction undoes those things. That would suck.

                                                                                                          I'm stubbornly insisting that 1977 is our split point, because that's what we've been led to believe up til now. Once I see something different, I'll go with it gladly. But I need a point of reference, and that's what makes the most sense to me. So based on that assumption, Anthony Cooper was a con man at one point. I wonder what affect that had on anything, including Sawyer, possibly.

                                                                                                            #18.22 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:30 PM EST
                                                                                                            Superman2001

                                                                                                            I still think Sawyer appear fundamentally changed to the core. Yes, I saw the whole Kate exchange as well and wondered. But I think that had more to do with him currently being either 1) undercover or 2) less likely, just attracted to Kate so let her go. But the whole Hurley exchange was so NOT original Sawyer. Goes out of his way to warn a stranger to be careful. Shows no further interest in him (therefore not likely to be running a con on him). It was something that nice, concerned people do in normal life. Not a Sawyer thing to do at all.

                                                                                                            So, he's conned you, too. ;)

                                                                                                            Seriously, though, that's what he's always done. Think about how he duped John in order to get the guns: "Hey, I'm just trying to warn you that Jack and everybody else are on their way up here to arm up, so you better do something." Next thing you know, he's gamed everyone.

                                                                                                            He could be a straight shooter now, but he's still sarcastic old Sawyer, from what we've seen. But if Locke is cool with his dad, then anything is possible. I'm making a ton of assumptions, and could definitely be wrong. Probably am, as I always have been with this show.

                                                                                                              #18.23 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:35 PM EST
                                                                                                              pinkcap

                                                                                                              I'm making a ton of assumptions, and could definitely be wrong. Probably am, as I always have been with this show.

                                                                                                              Superman - I think the same can be said for myself and everyone else on this site. We could come up with 5 different theories and still be wrong. That's why we love this show.

                                                                                                                #18.24 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:40 AM EST
                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                Mike Johnson-1604544

                                                                                                                what does ilana intend to do with the ashes? I think she might have aplan to ressurect jacob (in his old body -- not sayid's or some new kid we just met).

                                                                                                                  Reply#19 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:06 AM EST
                                                                                                                  Susanaree

                                                                                                                  Maybe she wanted ashes to keep for sentimental value - she was grieving Jacob when Ben came in. I'll bet there was more to the relationship between Ilana and Jacob than we've seen - brother and sister, perhaps - like Jack and Claire.

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  #19.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:00 PM EST
                                                                                                                  kcjhawk

                                                                                                                  She might have also been mourning her fellow comrades. There had to be a reason why she stayed outside when they went in to try and kill Flocke. I think Jacob warned her and she felt guilty afterward that they all died.

                                                                                                                    #19.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST
                                                                                                                    Pfemm

                                                                                                                    I agree that she was probably grieving her comrades

                                                                                                                      #19.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:50 PM EST
                                                                                                                      Amy-1026029

                                                                                                                      I also thought maybe she was going to resurrect him. I also know her relationship to Jacob via a spoiler website. But won't say lol.

                                                                                                                        #19.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                                                                        I FINALLY found the website. Too bad they don't have a private message thing on this site so I could ask your opinion on a thought I had after reading that spoiler. I guess I can say this: are you sure the person involved is Ilana and not someone else?

                                                                                                                          #19.5 - Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:34 PM EST
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          Herbcules74

                                                                                                                          Good Morning all,

                                                                                                                          This was a much better episode then last week. At least we got a few answers.

                                                                                                                          Cheers: John's funeral.....Frank-This is the weirdest funeral I've ever been to.

                                                                                                                          Ben - John was a better man then I am...I'm sorry I killed him.

                                                                                                                          Sawyer starting to act more like Sawyer.

                                                                                                                          Jeers: Still too many new questions and not enough answers

                                                                                                                          Questions:

                                                                                                                          What did Nemesis want to ask Richard?

                                                                                                                          I have a theory on this. More later

                                                                                                                        • Who was the child that Nemesis encountered?
                                                                                                                        • At first I thought it was a young John Locke because he was sort of dressed like him. Later when he actually spoke to Nemesis it looked like he may be a younger version of Jacob.

                                                                                                                        • What does Ilana intend to do with Jacob's ashes?
                                                                                                                        • No clue. Maybe to protect herself from Nemesis.

                                                                                                                        • What is Nemesis "recruiting" for?
                                                                                                                        • He obviously needs some kind of help to get of the Island. He may have to fight his way off and needs an army to help.

                                                                                                                        • Why could Sawyer see the boy, but Richard couldn't?
                                                                                                                        • Because the "boy" wanted Sawyer to see him.

                                                                                                                        • Why (and how) does Nemesis want everyone dead?
                                                                                                                        • I'm not sure if that is what he really wants. That could be what Jacob told Richard the Nemesis wants to keep Richard in fear of him.

                                                                                                                          Why did Sawyer follow Nemesis so far, even after Richard's warning?

                                                                                                                          Because like us Sawyer WANTS ANSWERS!!!!

                                                                                                                        • Was Nemesis really a human being before, like he claims?
                                                                                                                        • I think he was. Maybe thousands of years ago.

                                                                                                                        • Why can't Nemesis change his form anymore?
                                                                                                                        • I believe the forms that we have seen of Jacob and Nemesis are not really their true forms. They may be the forms of players from their past games. I think it takes a lot for them to change their forms and requires special circumstances. Maybe once they "lock" in to a form (pun intended) for a length of time they are stuck with it. We may have seen Nemesis disguised as other people for short periods of time, (Christian, Eko's brother, Alex). but at those times he only revealed himself to one person, never a group. He may have just been manipulating what those people were seeing.

                                                                                                                        • How do the numbers correspond to the Oceanic survivors?
                                                                                                                        • I was really excited about this revelation. We may finally see what the numbers actually mean. As to how the number relates to the person it is assigned to is a mystery to me, but I'm sure it means something.

                                                                                                                        • What does it mean to take over Jacob's responsibility of protecting the Island?
                                                                                                                        • Jacob was looking to retire and he needs a replacement.

                                                                                                                        • Why does Nemesis need Sawyer to get off the Island?
                                                                                                                        • As I stated before. I don't think Nemesis can leave on his own. He needs help to get off the island. And as with everything else we have seen, the help has to be given willingly.

                                                                                                                          Thoughts: Did anyone else catch in the parallel world that Helen said she wanted a small wedding, her parents and his Dad. I would have to think that in this reality John's Dad didn't push him out the window. Otherwise why would they want to invite him to the wedding? In that case I wonder what sort of accident caused John to be in a wheelchair.

                                                                                                                          When Nemesis had the conversation with Richard he didn't seem evil.

                                                                                                                          Theories:

                                                                                                                          Every week this damn show causes me to rethink what I believed the week before. One of the reasons why this message board is so fun is all the various theories that are thrown out for discussion. This came to me this morning on my drive in to work, (as if I ever get anything at work down on Wednesdays). Going back to Richards conversation with Nemesis. Could Richard be the "Jack" of the last "game" that Jacob and Nemesis played. Maybe from the people on the Black Rock or even a "game" that was played earlier in history. Say that Jacob and Nemesis were battling for Richard's soul or support or something. Jacob "won" and Richard became a follower of his. Nemesis wants to give Richard a "second chance" to side with him. Just a thought.

                                                                                                                          Herb

                                                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                                                          Reply#20 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:32 AM EST
                                                                                                                          Lostie Girl

                                                                                                                          "Could Richard be the 'Jack' of the last 'game' that Jacob and Nemesis played?"

                                                                                                                          Interesting theory...or even the "Sawyer" of the last game.

                                                                                                                          My theory is that neither Jacob or Nemesis was good or evil, god vs. satan as in the Christian religion. But that they were more like pagan gods (Egypt anyone?) that were more human-like (having both good and bad traits) that like to place bets on the human race. They placed the bet, but a "higher" god than them set the rules. If they want to leave they only have two choices: 1.) Everyone dies...game over, or 2.)They find replacements to continue the game. I don't think Jacob cares about leaving; he is an all or nothing kind of deity and is playing to win. Nemesis on the other hand is tired of the game and is like a frustrated video-game player purposely shooting their team mates before jumping off a bridge. I don't wonder if there is a higher story to why the two might be playing this game anyway. In mythology there are always reasons the gods are making certain bets (i.e., if you win I won't kill your mother, etc.). I think that Nemesis knows that he was always destined to lose (maybe unfairly) and has decided to change how he is playing the game.

                                                                                                                          • 6 votes
                                                                                                                          #20.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:22 PM EST
                                                                                                                          lostinventura

                                                                                                                          Regarding the numbers, what if they have no more significance than that was the person's position on this list. I'm an attorney (yes sorry to everyone), and when we pick a jury, we seat 12 at a time. Juror #1 in seat #1, Juror #2 in seat #2, and so forth. as we learn more about a juror and ask the juror what we believe are important questions, we are given the choice of excusing that juror in the hopes of seating a better candidate to decide in our favor. when a juror is replaced, the next person called takes that juror's seat and position. So if John Smith was Juror #1, gets excused and Jane Smith replaces him, Jane Smith now becomes Juror #1. Maybe the list has always had a finite number of positions (perhpaps, 42) and as candidates are crossed off, new ones take over the position.

                                                                                                                          i know this is a simple theory but since Jacob likes numbers, the existence of them throughout the series may just be to entertain Jacob. they have no mythological or symbolic meaning, other than representing the list.

                                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                                          #20.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          Amy-1026029

                                                                                                                          I have a question, why did Jacob visit Kate when she was a little girl, if her name isn't on the wall and she's not a candidate?

                                                                                                                            Reply#21 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:33 AM EST
                                                                                                                            JonAR

                                                                                                                            Yes he visited her when she was taking the lunchbox

                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                            #21.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:40 AM EST
                                                                                                                            Amy-1026029

                                                                                                                            I know, but if he visited all of the others, and they are candidates: Sawyer, Jack, Hurley, Locke, Jin or Sun, and Sayid, why isn't Kate?

                                                                                                                              #21.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:47 AM EST
                                                                                                                              JonAR

                                                                                                                              Well if you think about it Claire wasn’t on there either or any of the other passengers who were in the first few seasons.

                                                                                                                              But I dont know why some and not others. What do all of them have in common that the other people on the island dont.

                                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                                              #21.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:54 AM EST
                                                                                                                              pinkcap

                                                                                                                              Kate could have been on the list and at some point eliminated by Jacob - Sayid and Hurley were touched after they left the island. Maybe they were supposed to replace someone else like Kate. Another possibility is that Jacob has other plans for Kate.

                                                                                                                                #21.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:26 AM EST
                                                                                                                                JonAR

                                                                                                                                Or that shes hot and keeps the show going with love triangles

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #21.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:41 AM EST
                                                                                                                                Pfemm

                                                                                                                                Or that shes hot and keeps the show going with love triangles

                                                                                                                                her "hot"ness does not in any way compensate for her usually crappy story lines and crying in every episode and/or the love quadrangles.

                                                                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                #21.6 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:46 AM EST
                                                                                                                                Anjillina

                                                                                                                                While that seems interesting (Jacob touching Sayid and Hurley to replace previous players) it seems unlikely because their name is assigned to one of the original 6 numbers. So it seems like those 6 are the key players and the others are there because of a connection or an attempt to turn the game. Just my theory of course. I find the Desmond bit confusing though. He seems more important than he suddenly appeared to be on last night's show.

                                                                                                                                  #21.7 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:30 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  mearth1961

                                                                                                                                  Just being touched by Jacob I don't think makes you a Candidate. I suspect that he needed people to play various roles. Kate was needed to position both Jack and Sawyer in certain roles at certain times?
                                                                                                                                  After all, as she herself pronounced this week "she can be VERY convincing!" *snort*

                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                  #21.8 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:54 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  Susanaree

                                                                                                                                  Kate substitutes for Ilana - who has a special relationship with Jacob. The question becomes who is the substitute for Jacob, since Kate a special relationship with both Jack and Sawyer.

                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                  #21.9 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:03 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  mommyofthree

                                                                                                                                  Kate was touched by Jacob but there is no indication that Claire was. At least not yet. Last Claire was seen she was "crazy eyes" with Christian in the house.

                                                                                                                                    #21.10 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:37 PM EST
                                                                                                                                    OnlyChild

                                                                                                                                    After all, as she herself pronounced this week "she can be VERY convincing!" *snort*

                                                                                                                                    That was a weird moment, I thought. It sounded more like Sayid than Kate.

                                                                                                                                      #21.11 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:44 PM EST
                                                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                                                      JonAR

                                                                                                                                      Who doesnt love the good vs evil scale and locke throwing the white stone in the water as the scale tips to evil. "inside joke"

                                                                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                      Reply#22 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:39 AM EST
                                                                                                                                      JonAR

                                                                                                                                      What I found funny was that when nemesis gave sawyer the 3 options the first 2 were about sawyer himself in 1 doing nothing 2 taking over and protecting the island which nemesis says it’s for no reason it’s just an island which we all know it’s clearly not. But his 3rd choice directly involved another person, nemesis.

                                                                                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                      Reply#23 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:51 AM EST
                                                                                                                                      JonAR

                                                                                                                                      My question now is if Nemesis is trapped in Locke why are they so worried about Sayid ?

                                                                                                                                        Reply#24 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:56 AM EST
                                                                                                                                        H.Dane

                                                                                                                                        Maybe they're hoping that he could be their candidate.

                                                                                                                                        They don't seem to want to kill him, but they do want him dead. Like the rules little maybe-jacob said, the candidate can't be killed by the person wanting his body, but has to die.

                                                                                                                                          #24.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:20 AM EST
                                                                                                                                          belle42

                                                                                                                                          Sayid already died once. Why does he need to die again?

                                                                                                                                            #24.2 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:16 PM EST
                                                                                                                                            H.Dane

                                                                                                                                            Cause they fixed him? I have no f**king idea. I hated that whole episode and would rather he just died in Season 5. The whole pill battle was retarded.

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #24.3 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:14 PM EST
                                                                                                                                            mearth1961

                                                                                                                                            I'm not so sure that the poison will kill Sayid! Just the darkness he's infected with? No one has mentioned that Desmond and whats-his-name used to inject themselves daily with an unknown substance that was suppose to protect them from some contagion, right? And didn't Ethan attempt to inject Claire with something? We may discover that this is all related....

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #24.4 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:59 PM EST
                                                                                                                                            Mike Johnson-1604544

                                                                                                                                            I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone in the temple knows that smokey has taken the form of locke.

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #24.5 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST
                                                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                                                            Pfemm

                                                                                                                                            Cheers

                                                                                                                                            There are SO many for this episode.

                                                                                                                                            • LA Locke seems overall happy... still with his lady and getting married
                                                                                                                                            • first van scene. I really liked that when he fell out at the beginning he was laughing when the sprinklers came on.
                                                                                                                                            • second van scene was hilarious.
                                                                                                                                            • Hurley and Rose connecting with Locke
                                                                                                                                            • All the liners from practically everyone
                                                                                                                                            • Ben's eulogy .... esp the "and I'm very Sorry I murdered him."
                                                                                                                                            • Hurley's "he's a douche"
                                                                                                                                            • Frank's "weirdest damned funeral...'
                                                                                                                                            • the numbers
                                                                                                                                            • The rocks on a scale and Flocke calling it an inside joke
                                                                                                                                            • Them finally acknowledging that Locke was "getting Ripe" lol.
                                                                                                                                            • Just a Damned good Episode!

                                                                                                                                            Jeers

                                                                                                                                            • I swear it feels like after every scene there's a commercial
                                                                                                                                            • episodes always feel so SHORT!
                                                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                            Reply#25 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:15 AM EST
                                                                                                                                            Jilie

                                                                                                                                            I feel the same way about the commercials - way too many! and too soone!

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            #25.1 - Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:04 AM EST
                                                                                                                                            robinm85

                                                                                                                                            when Frank said "weirdest damn funeral" I LOL'ed and said, well of course it is! This is "Lost"!

                                                                                                                                              #25.2 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:58 AM EST
                                                                                                                                              minklady

                                                                                                                                              Did you notice that Charlie (Dominic Monaghan) was in one of the commercials for the ABC show Flashforward? How appropriate to have the actor in another show about time travel.

                                                                                                                                                #25.3 - Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:02 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
                                                                                                                                                Leave a Comment:
                                                                                                                                                You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                                You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                                (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                                                                                                                                                Newsvine Privacy Statement
                                                                                                                                                As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                                                                                                                                                FUN STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                • Leaderboard |
                                                                                                                                                • E-Mail Alerts |
                                                                                                                                                • Top of the Vine |
                                                                                                                                                • Newsvine Live |
                                                                                                                                                • Newsvine Archives |
                                                                                                                                                • The Greenhouse |
                                                                                                                                                COMPANY STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                • Code of Honor |
                                                                                                                                                • Company Info |
                                                                                                                                                • Contact Us |
                                                                                                                                                • Jobs |
                                                                                                                                                • User Agreement |
                                                                                                                                                • Privacy Policy |
                                                                                                                                                • About our ads
                                                                                                                                                LEGAL STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                                • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                                • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com