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LOST: Hurley's Important Mission at the "Lighthouse"

Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:23 PM EST
By Steve Watts

Live Poll

What did you think of tonight's episode?

View Results
  • 84583
    Fantastic
    47%
  • 84584
    Pretty good
    46%
  • 84585
    Mediocre
    7%
  • 84586
    Terrible
    1%

VoteTotal Votes: 286

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Jacob gives Hurley a mission to bring someone to the Island, while Claire reveals her new allegiances and the lengths she'll go for Aaron.

ABC Preview:

Hurley must convince Jack to accompany him on an unspecified mission, and Jin stumbles across an old friend.

Note: "Lost in the Vines" is made for discussion of the series "Lost" on ABC. As such, here be spoilers! We talk frankly about the events of the night, speculate about future events, and so on. Read no further if you don't want spoilers.

The Big Reveal: Nemesis is Claire's "friend"; Jacob has a special task for Jack.

Summary

Jack walks into his house and puts his keys down, then washing his face. He looks at the scar on his side pensively and gets a phone call. His mother is asking about the coffin, and he says the airline thinks it was lost in Berlin. She asks how she's supposed to get anything done, she can't find his will or papers anywhere. Jack promises he'll come over and they'll find it together. He asks when he got his appendix taken out, and she says he was 7 or 8, and that his father wanted to do it himself but wasn't allowed. She asks if he remembers and he says he guesses he does. He looks at the time and rushes off the phone and out the door.

He pulls up to St. Mary's Academy and finds a young boy sitting on the steps. He apologizes for being late to the boy, David, who calls him "dad."

Jack looks out at the water of the Temple. Dogen says he was afraid Jack had left, and Jack asks if it was an option. Dogen says everything is an option, but he would have to stop him. Dogen asks if Jack's friends are coming back, and Jack tells him no, they probably aren't.

Hurley and Miles play tic-tac-toe, to another tie. Hurley asks if Miles is hungry, and leaves to get some food. Hurley goes into the Temple and sees Jacob dipping his fingers in the water. Hurley asks what he's doing here, and Jacob says he needs him. Jacob says he should get a pen, he'll have to write a few things down. Hurley asks what kinds of things. Jacob says someone is coming to the Island, and he needs Hurley to help him find it.

----------------

David takes some books out of his bag, and Jack tells him he hooked up the cable so he can watch the Red Sox. He picks up a book and asks if he's reading it, and David says yes. Jack says he always wanted to read it to him when he was little. David walks away; Jack follows and tells him to take off his headphones. Jack asks who he's listening to, and David says he hasn't heard of them. Jack says he's trying to have a conversation, and David says they only see each other once a month, so can't they just get through it? Jack gets a phone call and his mom asks if he's coming over, and he says he's heading over now. He asks David if he wants to come, but he refuses. Jack promises to be back in about an hour and they'll eat.

Sayid approaches Jack and asks why everyone is staring at him. Jack advises him to just ignore them. Sayid talks about the infection and the pill, and Jack's disappearance; he asks what Jack is hiding from him. Jack tells him the pill was poison and they wanted him to kill him. He says that whatever happened, they say it happened to someone else too. Sayid asks, who?

Claire approaches Jin, whose leg is bloody in the trap. She kicks Justin's body, and grabs a metal rod to pry open the trap. He asks how long she's been out here, and she says, since they all left. She asks how long it was, and he says it's been 3 years. She says she has to get him somewhere safe, and helps him up. He tries to walk, but passes out.

Hurley reads some writing on his arm while looking through the hieroglyphs on the Temple walls. He finds one like an Omega, and Dogen asks what he's doing. He says he's just looking around because he's a fan of Temples, history, Indiana Jones stuff. Dogen tells him to go back to the courtyard, but Jacob appears, and instructs him to tell Dogen he can do what he wants because he's a candidate. Hurley does so, and Dogen asks who told him that. Hurley says it doesn't matter, and asks why Dogen doesn't go back to the courtyard. Dogen speaks in his native tongue and leaves. Jacob asks what he's doing, since he asked him to bring Jack with him. Hurley says it's hard to get Jack to do things, but Jacob says he has to. Hurley says this is already hard, and he lied to a samurai. He says if Jacob has ideas, he's listening. Jacob smiles.

Hurley approaches Jack outside and tells him to act cool, wait 10 seconds, and follow him. Jack questions him, and Hurley says that Jacob told him about it. Jack says he's not going. Hurley says Jacob said he'd say that, so he told him to tell him "you have what it takes." Jack gets up and asks Hurley where Jacob is. Hurley says he's dead, but he turns up wherever he wants like Obi-Wan Kenobi. But, he says, if Jack wants to see him, he's where they're going. Jack says, let's go see Jacob.

----------------

Jin wakes up in a makeshift shack, and calls for Claire. He stumbles up, finding dynamite next to him, a cradle, and an oar he uses for a crutch. He takes the covering off the cradle and finds animal remains. Claire brings Justin in, saying he was pretending to be dead but wasn't. She knocks him down and says she wants to know where he's hiding her son. She says she should get Jin's wound cleaned up before the infection gets him. Jin asks if she's been out here all this time by herself, and she says she's not by herself. Justin struggles and says they have to get out of here now. Jin says it's okay, he knows her. Justin says he knows her, and if they don't get out of here now she's going to kill them both.

Hurley and Jack walk through the jungle, coming to a fork. Jack asks which way, and Hurley chooses a path. Jack sees a backpack, and Kate pulls a gun on him. He says it's okay, and she puts it away. Jack asks where Jin and Sawyer are, and she explains that Jin went back and Sawyer is on his own. Hurley tells her how to get back into the Temple, and she says she's going to find Claire. Jack tells her she's not at the beach, and explains that the people at the Temple said something happened to her. He tells her they didn't say where she is. He urges Kate to come with them so they can go to the Temple together. Hurley says it's just supposed to be them, but Jack insists. Kate says it's okay and that they should just go.

Jack pulls to the house of Margo, his mother. Inside, he looks through the files. She says they'll never find it, and he says it's in there somewhere. She says it's like a needle in a haystack and why he wouldn't give it to his lawyer is beyond her. She asks if he wants a drink, and he says no thanks. She says, good for you. She asks how David is holding up, and says he was really upset at the funeral. Jack seems confused, and Margo observes he didn't tell Jack. Jack says he doesn't talk much, and she says that's how Jack was with his father. Jack says that's because he was terrified of his father, and Margo says how does he know David isn't terrified of him? Jack says why would he be? She says she doesn't know, but maybe he should ask him. She finds Christian's will, and opens it. She asks Jack if his father ever mentioned a Claire Littleton.

Claire boils a mixture and sharpens an axe. Justin tells Jin to untie him before she comes back, and again emphasizes that she'll kill them both. He says he needs to snap her neck when she comes back in. She reenters, and says she's sorry Jin got stuck in the trap. She tends to the wound and starts to stitch it. Jin asks if she's been here the whole time, and she says she's had to move around a lot to hide from them, and she's lucky she's alive. Jin asks what she's going to do with Justin, and she says he's going to tell him what they did with Aaron. Justin protests, but she says she knows they have him. Claire says her father told her, and her friend told her, so she knows it's true. Jin asks who her friend is, and she asks if Jin is still her friend. He says, of course he is. Claire gets her axe and tells Justin it's his turn.

----------------

Hurley apologizes to Jack, for wrecking his game with Kate. Jack says there's nothing left to wreck, and Hurley asks what happened with them. Jack says he wasn't cut out for it, and Hurley says he'd make a great dad. Jack says he'd make a terrible dad, then finds an asthma inhaler on the floor. Hurley says it's Shannon's. Jack observes that they're at the caves that they once lived in. They find the corpses and Hurley says he totally forgot they were in there. Hurley asks, what if they time traveled to dinosaur times and died and got buried here, and the skeletons are them? He turns around to see Jack looking at Christian's coffin. Jack says he found this place chasing the ghost of his dead father, who led him here. He says that was his coffin, before he smashed it to pieces. Hurley asks why he did that, and Jack says, because he wasn't in it.

Jack comes home with pizza, but can't find David. He calls David's phone, but gets his voicemail. He leaves a message, saying that if he did something to upset him he's really sorry. He says he's driving to his mother's house, so if he's there, don't go anywhere. He rings the doorbell, but there's no answer. He opens the door with a hidden key, and goes up to David's bedroom. But he's not there. He turns on a light and sees his music sheets, and a picture of them together. Jack turns on the message machine, which is a message from the conservatory to confirm his slot at 7 PM. The next message is from Jack, from Sydney. He says he just needed to hear his voice and he'll try again later.

Hurley says it's really old school, him and Jack trekking through the jungle to do something they don't understand. Hurley asks why Jack came back to the Island. Jack turns the question around on him, and Hurley says in L.A. Jacob hopped in his cab and told him he was supposed to, so he came. Jack chuckles, and Hurley presses Jack on the question. Jack says he came back because he was broken and stupid enough to think the place could fix him. He asks Hurley how much further they've got, and Hurley says it's not far at all. They come to a lighthouse on the beach. Jack asks how it is they've never seen it before. Hurley says they weren't looking for it.

Claire demands to know where her son is, and Justin says he doesn't know. She demands he stops covering for them. She demands he stops lying, and says they tortured her. She said they captured her because she was picking their people off. Jin tries to intervene, but Claire shouts that they branded her. Claire asks again, and Justin says he doesn't know again. Claire raises her axe, and Jin finally shouts that Kate has Aaron, she took him with her. Justin says that's the truth, and if she lets him go he'll never tell anyone he saw her. Claire kills him with the axe.

----------------

Hurley and Jack head towards the lighthouse, and Jack asks if Jacob is inside. Hurley says he guesses so, but they need to turn it on. Hurley struggles with the door, and Jack kicks it open.

Jack heads into the conservatory advertising a youth concert series. He sees David playing the piano and gets teary-eyed. Another kid remarks to Jack that he's really good, and Jack looks over to see the boy hug Dogen. Dogen says they're too young to have this kind of pressure, and it's hard to watch and be unable to help. He says Jack's son has a gift. He asks how long he's been playing, and Jack says he doesn't know.

Hurley and Jack walk to the top of the lighthouse. Hurley says it's cool, and must've been built to help ships get here. Jack asks where Jacob is, and Hurley just says he's not here yet. He starts to pull on a chain and asks Jack to tell him when the mirrors get to 108 degrees. Jack sees things in the reflection of the mirror, and tells Hurley to stop. Hurley says it's just ocean. Jack looks down and sees names etched in the degrees. He finds his own name at 23 degrees, and Hurley protests before Jack turns the mirror to that point. He looks in the mirror and sees the house he grew up in. Hurley says that's weird, and Jack realizes that Jacob's been watching all of them this whole time. He asks again where Jacob is. Hurley says he doesn't know, and was just assuming that he'd be here. Jack says he wants to know why Jacob has been watching him, and demands that Hurley asks him. Hurley says it doesn't work like that, he just shows up whenever he feels like it. Jack grabs a telescope and shouts at Hurley for information, then smashes in the mirrors of the lighthouse.

----------------

David gets his bike, and Jack appears behind him telling him he was great in there. David is surprised Jack saw him, and says he missed a couple notes. Jack says it sounded perfect to him. He tells him that he scared the hell out of him. David says he was at grandma's, and he thought he could get back before he got home. Jack says he didn't know David was still playing, and David says he asked grandma not to tell him. He says he was so into it, watching him practice. He says he didn't tell him he was coming because he didn't want Jack to see him fail. Jack says when he was David's age, his father didn't want to see him fail, and used to say he didn't have what it takes. He says he spent his whole life carrying it around, and he doesn't want David to feel that way. He says he'll always love him, no matter what he does he'll never fail. He says he just wants to be a part of David's life. David says okay, and Jack tells him he has some pizza at the house. Jack says, let's go home.

Jack looks out at the ocean, and Jacob comes asking how it went. Hurley asks where he was, and Jacob says it doesn't matter. Hurley says he should've come and explained everything so Jack wouldn't freak out and break his mirror. Hurley says whoever they needed to get to the Island is screwed, and Jacob says they'll find another way. Hurley asks why he didn't care, and Jacob looks at Jack. Hurley realizes Jacob wanted Jack to see what was in the mirror.

Jacob explains that it was the only way for him to understand how important he is. He says Jack is here to do something, and he has to find that himself. Jacob says sometimes you can just hop in someone's cab and tell them what they're supposed to do. Other times, you have to let them look out at the ocean for a while. Hurley says next time he should tell him from the start. Jacob says he couldn't risk him not coming, and he had to get them as far from the Temple as possible. He says someone is going there. Hurley gets up, wanting to warn everyone, but Jacob says it's too late.

Claire tells Jin that if she hadn't killed Justin, he would've killed her. She asks why he said Kate was raising Aaron. Jin claims he was lying to save Justin's life. But, he says, Claire was right and the Others have her baby. He tells her Aaron is at the Temple and he saw him there, but she'll need him to get there. She asks how they get in, and he tells her there's a secret way. She thanks him, and says she's so glad to know he was lying, because if Kate was raising Aaron she'd have to kill her. Nemesis enters, asking if he's interrupting. Jin asks, John? Claire says it's not John, it's her friend.

Cut to LOST

The Big Questions:

  • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?
  • Who is David's mother?
  • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?
  • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?
  • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?
  • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?
  • What does Jacob need Jack to do?
  • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

Lost in the Vines Trivia Question:

What is David Shephard's house number?

This Week in Original Articles:

Once again those who write original articles this year will be entered (once per week) in this year's contest. Contributing original articles or being the first to answer the trivia questions are the ways to be entered, so feel free to write!

  • A Game of Twenty LOST Meta-Questions (Debra Murphy)
  • Mysteries of the 'Lost' Cave (Michael Sautter)

Next, on Lost: Sundown - Sayid is faced with a difficult decision, and Claire sends a warning to the temple inhabitants.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

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Steve Watts

The good news, another Lost episode! The bad news, another Jack episode! Really, Lost? The season opener focused on Jack. I was really hoping, given the ABC tease for this one, that it would be Hurley-centric. Que cera.

CHEERS:

  • Even if not a real Hurley episode, we had plenty of Hurley's wonderful lovable self.
  • Hurley and Miles. The more I see them together, the more I want to see the season ending with a spin-off pilot about these two opening a detective agency that talks to dead people.
  • Interesting ideas of gray morality. We've seen Nemesis, mostly, be honest to do evil things. In this episode we saw Jacob lie (or at least withhold truth) to do a good thing.
  • I admit Jack was, okay, a little more likable here. Seeing him with a son brought a different dynamic to the mix, and even if it was sort of the same retreaded daddy issues, at least we got a new perspective. So I liked Jack here right up until...

JEERS:

  • Jack freaks out on Hurley. Oh come on, man, you know Hurley wouldn't (and couldn't) lie to you. You didn't have to pick up a blunt object and shout at him. I was beginning to hate you less, and then you blew it.

BIG QUESTIONS:

Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?

This is the second time we've gotten a cue that Jack has some kind of cross-memory thing going. First his look on the plane, and now he doesn't remember an operation from his childhood? That had to be in the script for some reason, and I think they're slowly building more evidence that the flash-sideways Losties are semi-aware of their Island selves.

Who is David's mother?

I'm assuming it's Jack's wife from before, who he also got divorced from. Seems like marriage just doesn't work out for that guy.

What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?

This may be nothing. I just figure that, if the water were corrupted somehow, Jacob wouldn't be dipping his fingers in. Maybe he was purifying it? Turning it to wine? I don't know.

Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?

To be clear, I don't think Jacob ever intended the lighthouse to bring anyone to the Island. He can see the future (he knows Claire is coming), he knew Jack would smash the mirror. That was the whole point. But even after learning the mirror was smashed, he said that "they" would find another way, so I still think he wants to bring someone. As a wild guess, I'll say the alt-Losties.

Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?

Well it is a pretty big Island. But I liked the dialogue here. It might have been a throwaway line or just a metaphor, but the idea that sometimes you don't see things until you need to.

Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?

No, emphatically no.

What does Jacob need Jack to do?

This isn't something we know enough about yet to even hypothesize on.

How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

Now here's an interesting question. She called him her "friend," and seemed familiar with him. We've been figuring he can only take the form of dead people on the Island, so he could only take Locke's form once he was back on the Island. But that's only been, what, a week or two at most? There seemed to be more familiarity there.

Also note, she referred to her father and her friend as different people, so if Nemesis was first playing Christian and then Locke (as I believe), she still thought they were separate beings. But then, she knows Nemesis isn't Locke, so did she know it wasn't Christian either?

  • 12 votes
#1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:35 PM EST
BlackRock Steve

JEERS:

  • Jack freaks out on Hurley.

I didn't see it as Jack freaking out "on Hurley" but rather as he stated, and as I said to my wife when we were watching and she reacted as you did...you'd freak out too if you suddenly realized that you were "watched" since childhood...as Jack demanded: "why was he watching me?"

Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?

This is the second time we've gotten a cue....

Sorry, Steve, but have to really disagree on that one...it's the 4th cue for me:

  1. the way Jack gripped the seat handles at the exact moment of turbulence, because he "knew"/expected the plane to crash, as it did originally.
  2. in the jet bathroom, Looking at the nick on his neck from the Swan fight and wondering where it came from.
  3. his 'deja vous' moment with Desmond.
  4. Now the appy scar.

What does Jacob need Jack to do?

This isn't something we know enough about yet to even hypothesize on.

I think we have had major clues so far, what with the "candidate" thing and many clues in past episodes....Jack needs, and is being given an opportunity for, personal redemption....he's being given a "second chance".

How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

Claire was influenced by Christian for a long time, and her "friend" is MIB, the grey-hair man, who I think we will find met her at least 3 yrs. ago, or more likely, way back seasons ago when she was kidnapped by the Others. Yes, he can appear as any 'dead person' but he also has (or had until he killed Jacob) his standard appearance as we saw on the beach in last season's finale.

Thanks, =BRS

  • 10 votes
#1.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 PM EST
ranturn

I agree with Steve that a show with Hurley and Miles would be fantastic. My favorite Hurley line tonight was when he and Jack were walking through the jungle......"This is old school. You and me in the jungle doing something we don't understand. Good times!" I love this character!

  • 16 votes
#1.2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 PM EST
Rebecca D

I somewhat disagree on the lighthouse question. I think Jacob had Jack destroy the lighthouse exactly for the purpose of bringing whoever to the island. Many times lighthouses are used as beacons to warn ships about rocky/dangerous coastlines. If the lighthouse isn't working, then perhaps that is what will cause this person's ship to crash on the island.

Especially because to me, Jacob was being way too casual about it. It was tooo laid back. He didn't want to reveal to Hurley that his reason for getting Jack there was to do exactly what he did.

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 PM EST
Steve Watts

Sorry, Steve, but have to really disagree on that one...it's the 4th cue for me:

Well I was sort of just calling everything on the plane the first cue as a blanket statement, but you make a good point. Interestingly, Jack is the only one that's given such obvious signs. Why is that? Does it have anything to do with Jacob's plans for him?

I think Jacob had Jack destroy the lighthouse exactly for the purpose of bringing whoever to the island.

I wouldn't rule that out, that maybe he had a dual purpose in mind. He wanted Jack to realize his importance and destroy the lighthouse in the process. Maybe Desmond will be coming back on another boat race.

  • 9 votes
#1.4 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:19 PM EST
Lostie Girl

Rebecca D - I agree about Jacob wanting the lighthouse destroyed, possibly so a boat will crash on the rocks and come to the island. But I really don't like Jacob's smuggness to Hurley. I thought he was being quite patronizing to him.

  • 3 votes
#1.5 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:20 PM EST
blackwidow1

I think Rebecca's got something here. Lighthouses were used to warn of coastlines and now its broken thereby increasing the chance that a ship/craft etc. will "accidentally" show up on the shores of the Island. Who will be captured by Jacob's web this time should be interesting.

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 PM EST
say what??

Lighthouses serve dual purposes, warning of hazards and serving as a navigation aid. If Jacob wanted to bring someone to the island the lighthouse would help them arrive safely - why would he want them to crash on the rocks? But I believe the lighthouse is meant to guide people, not ships. Setting the indicator on a name directs the "guiding light" to that person to help him avoid hazards and arrive at the place Jacob needs him to be.

When Jack was worried about David and called from his living room, the arrangement of the windows reminded me of the mirrors in the lighthouse, and as Jack calls David to leave another message he looks out and his reflection is in the window.

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:19 AM EST
mearth1961

I think say what? has it nailed....and I'm now thinking that 108 may be Desmond?

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:10 AM EST
Pfemm

Setting the indicator on a name directs the "guiding light" to that person to help him avoid hazards and arrive at the place Jacob needs him to be.

If this is the case.... I think Desmond may be 108

Exactly what I was Thinking! it makes the most sense I think.

    #1.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:16 AM EST
    blackwidow1

    Good morning say what??

    I agree. Typically you would think that a lighthouse would aid in the safety of people arriving on a coastline. And yes, I did also see the lighthouse as a "guiding light"

    why would he want them to crash on the rocks?

    The Oceanic flight crashed, Desmond's sailboat crashed, et. ... so I don't think Jacob has much of a problem of with people crashing on that island just so long as they get there

    I also noticed a lot of Jack reflections in last night's episode but didn't really consider much what it meant until I was driving into work this morning ... I immediately thought of Narcissus of Greek mythology ... how or why that relates to Lost ... no clue ... my drive to work doesn't take that long LOL

    • 4 votes
    #1.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:18 AM EST
    Pfemm

    Who is David's mother?

    I'm assuming it's Jack's wife from before, who he also got divorced from. Seems like marriage just doesn't work out for that guy.

    Except from Lostpedia entry for Sarah Shephard

    "Sarah was driving the other car in an accident that killed Shannon Rutherford's father, Adam Rutherford, a little over 3 years before Oceanic Flight 815 crashed. She was engaged to Kevin at the time of her car accident"

    So i don't think it's Jack's same ex-wife from the original timeline. the kid is Way too old. The year in the sideways timeline is 2004.

    that would mean that he would only have known Sarah for 3 years. that kid is what 12? (I'm not good with kid ages) definitely not a toddler though...

    So that means that Jack's marriage/divorce business is Completely different than the original.

    • 4 votes
    #1.11 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:40 AM EST
    JohnBoy813

    In regards to the lighthouse, it has always been stated that the island is hidden. What if the lighthouse has two purposes, one is to see the candidates throughout their lives and the second is to 'hide' the island. Now that the lighthouse is broken, the island is now visible! Charles Widmore can now find his way back!

    • 1 vote
    #1.12 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:19 AM EST
    Jilie

    trivia answer: the house number was 223

    • 1 vote
    #1.13 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:35 PM EST
    FortifiedHooligan

    Who is David's mother?

    I'm assuming it's Jack's wife from before, who he also got divorced from. Seems like marriage just doesn't work out for that guy.

    Not sure if anyone else mentioned this idea, but I saw someone suggest on a different site that it could be the foreign woman that Jack cheated on his wife with? Kind of a stretch but they do like to throw things back at you from way back when.

    • 1 vote
    #1.14 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:44 PM EST
    Superman2001

    The woman wasn't in the picture until right before he got divorced, which wasn't long before 815 crashed. The kid would be less than a year old.

    Besides, he didn't do anything but kiss her. Unless woman can get pregnant from kissing in this sideways reality...

    • 1 vote
    #1.15 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:25 PM EST
    Bandit-847315
    • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy? - Jack is connected with the other Jack on the island, his memories are messed up.
    • Who is David's mother? - I am going to through out one that is way out there, what if it is Juliet. She is dead on the Island, so I know there are the folks out there think it can not be her, however, Locke is also dead on the island, as is Charlie and he made it to LA
    • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water? - Waiting for Hurley.
    • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island? - I don't think it is the original losties, I am going with Desmond, he is also one that might be candidate.
    • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before? - Big Island
    • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset? - I think with the mirrors broken, it will bring someone there.
    • What does Jacob need Jack to do? - Too early to tell, I don't think it is just Jack, could be several of them.
    • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? - ever since Charlie died, or did he?

    Cheers -

    Hurley, love the character, his lines to Dogen, Jack and Jacob were priceless. Could have used a little Hurley in LA.

    Not a bad Jack episode, his character in LA was more tolerable than usual.

    Jin, his character is changing from when before.

    Jeers -

    Sayid seems too wimpy now, not the kick ass guy we all learned to love.

    Overall a good show, I found it interesting that when John showed up in Clair's hut that Jin knew him and Clair said he was not John, he was her friend.

    OK I am going to go way out there on this one, what if Jacob is the evil one, bring people to the Island to have his little tests, watch them all die sooner or later, fight, kill each other. Is that why he is having Hurley help him bring more people to the Island? And how do we know that MIB is evil? So he kills people as smokey? Perhaps he is trying to stop Jacob from bringing more people to the Island for a reason, to stop the madness. When it stops, then and only then can he himself leave. I know this might be a little out there, but I just wanted to get some other thoughts on this concept.

    • 2 votes
    #1.16 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:43 PM EST
    eriq samson

    I think the flash sideways are to different reality, one that was set in motion after the nuclear blast - that goes back to 1974 abd starts from there so yes jack could have had an appendectomy, son etc. in that reality - when jacob and whoever he is attracting and jack; and the smoke monster / locke and whoever claire are channeling (she seems possessed by something as well) fight the island will yet again time warp to yet another reality - the one we are seeing in the "flash sideways"

    • 1 vote
    #1.17 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:28 PM EST
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    # urley and Miles. The more I see them together, the more I want to see the season ending with a spin-off pilot about these two opening a detective agency that talks to dead people.
    # Interesting ideas of gray morality. We've seen Nemesis, mo

    I'd watch that

    • 1 vote
    #1.18 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:07 PM EST
    ME-again

    Bandit, I was also thinking Juliet could be Jack's wife. No reason to think that, but there's also no reason to believe that she is dead in the side-ways world. "It worked."

    Also, I still haven't figured out which is the evil one: Jacob or Nemisis. Honestly, if I had to say one over the other, I'd go with Jacob being the evil one. I could be totally wrong.

      #1.19 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:49 PM EST
      Superman2001

      Juliet being Jack's wife is entirely possible. There's a couple of logistics problems, because Juliet was in Miami taking care of her sick sister, but maybe she's not sick in this reality, or maybe something else brought her to LA before her sister got sick, and now that she's got a son, she's staying, or maybe her sister came to live with her... tons of possibilities.

        #1.20 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:04 PM EST
        lostinventura

        Ben claimed that Jacob healed Juliet's sister. Maybe in the LA X reality, Jacob doesn't heal Juliet's sister (if indeed that's what happened) and Juliet is Jack's wife. Given that Juliet is likely a doctor in LA X-ville, they could have met in medical school--it would give them enough time to get married and have a son.

          #1.21 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:32 PM EST
          LightOwl8

          Juliet was treating her sister shortly before Richard recruited her, right? Then she spent 3 years on the island before being kicked back to the 70s. So if Juliet and Jack married in Sideways Time and had a son (however long ago according to David's age), then she could have still cared for her sister 3 years ago (6?) when the cancer hit the first time. I know my numbers are inexact. Of course, her life could have also made a wide detour - if she didn't wind up as a fertility doctor, she might have been unable to help her sister. It would be nice, though, if she never wound up married to that jerk Edmund...

            #1.22 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:19 PM EST
            Superman2001

            The kid is a teenager. They would have had to be together back in 1990 or so.

              #1.23 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:22 PM EST
              Reply
              jdoc

              New to the blog..... Just a thought on why the number in the lighthouse is 108 and who Jacob wants to bring to the island. I think it could be Desmond. Remember Eloise Hawking told Des that the island is not through with him yet. We haven't seen Des yet this season and perhaps that he is who Jacob wants to bring back. The significance of the the 108 could represent the 108 minutes that Des had to reset the computer with and that number could signify Desmond in Jacob's scheme. Desmond seems to have a connection with the island and Farraday and he might be needed on the island to finish whatever Jacob forsees taking place on the island.

              • 14 votes
              #2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 PM EST
              Lostie Girl

              That would be *wonderful* if we could have Desmond back, especially for the final season, and your 108 = Desmond theory does make sense.

              • 3 votes
              #2.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:17 PM EST
              blackwidow1

              Below I say:

              This was the question of the night for me. Hurley told Jack that Jacob said to set the degrees to 108. I’m not a “numbers” person but I do remember that there have been people who have posted in previous weeks that the if you add up the Lost numbers (4-8-15-16-23-42) they equal 108. So I thought “ah hah – who is a conglomeration of all these numbers? Who can equal all of our Losties combined?” and … I have no idea! It’s gotta be someone big and awesome. But have we met this person before. This one will take some time to come up with a credible response.

              I think you've nailed it here jdoc. Gonna save me a lot of thinking time. Awesome call jdoc. Simply awesome.

              • 4 votes
              #2.2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:26 PM EST
              BlackRock Steve

              Yes, the first person I thought of was Desmond, assuming Jacob is the real protagonist (and not a 'smoke & mirrors'/irony) ....108 is the total of the nos. and the number Des had to enter.

              More importantly, at this point in the series, he is the only real living "hero" of the story to date since he is the only one who did what all the other losties are still struggling to do....used free choice to reject determinism and take control of his own destiny....all the rest have struggled or failed, but are trying.

              If Jacob is one of those white=black/black=white ironies, get ready for Widmore!

              • 7 votes
              #2.3 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:45 PM EST
              blackwidow1

              Blackrock Steve,

              If Jacob does NOT turn out to be the protagonist, wouldn't it be quite the coup for him to get Desmond, to conquer the living hero?
              This gets more interesting by the minute!

              • 5 votes
              #2.4 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:57 PM EST
              BlackRock Steve

              blackwidow...

              If Jacob does NOT turn out to be the protagonist, wouldn't it be quite the coup for him to get Desmond, to conquer the living hero? This gets more interesting...

              ABSOLUTELY!That was my point, not just a 'coup' but the coup des gras!! If he's the antaganoist, then for me that would be like winning the game! Not to mention, that Des = sailboat, where we last saw him living, and no light house could mean he'd "run" into the island again, even if he was trying to avoid it!

              BUT, with all the Nemesis/"infection" stuff and Claire, etc., it was much more of a reveal tonight for me that it's looking like Steve named "Nemesis" appropriately, and he really is the antagonist in the game.....next week's annotated version before the new episode will be VERY interesting to watch and will hopefully put the who's/who issue to bed once and for all...but then again...this is Lost!

              BTW....am I the only one who has been wondering for weeks about IF Dogen's costume was just assigned by wardrobe and a coincidence (not!), or if the fact that he wears botha light-colored shirt and a BLACK vest is an intended symbol on the show....not the usual expected garb for a "Zen master"...but a message to us!!??

              • 4 votes
              #2.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:14 AM EST
              blackwidow1

              Hmmm ... good question. There's not too much of Lost that I think is mere coincidence but I didn't take Dogen's outfit too much into consideration. He definitely does strike more of an Eastern yin/yang philosophy like Sebastian is always referring to so you may be on to something. I'd be really interested in finding out what Dogen's necklace is made of. I believe that the first time we saw Dogen, when Jack, Kate, Hurley, Jin and Sayid went to the temple per Jacob's instructions to Hurley and Hurley brings out the guitar case, Dogen touches his necklace right after he sees the Jacob's ankh that is inside. I thought it meant something then but there has been no elaboration on it, so I kind of dismissed it until you just posted this question. Will definitely have to dwell on Dogen's clothing and the necklace some more and watch for additional clues in future episodes.

              Ack! I'm sad to see that you're turning to the dark side and picking Nemesis as the antagonist! LOL!! Just kidding ... this utter confusion is half of the fun.

              What did you think about Claire's baby? It looked to me like a mini-Taweret! It was sad and weird at the same time. Claire would have never seen the statue as it would have been destroyed long before she arrived on the island (I don't think there's been any reference made to time travel by the 2007 island people - The Others, the Ajira survivors etc) so how would she know what Taweret looked like? And if Jacob is the one associated with Taweret, what with him living in the foot of it and all? Hmmmmm

              Lordy, this shows gonna fry my brain!

              • 4 votes
              #2.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:21 AM EST
              BlackRock Steve

              Ack! I'm sad to see that you're turning to the dark side and picking Nemesis as the antagonist! LOL!! Just kidding ... this utter confusion is half of the fun.

              Hey bw1...but wait, I said they are making him LOOK like the dark guy, especially with having him always drop in at the death time for folks. But, actually, it would have been really interesting if I'd had time to write my article like I wanted and my theory that "Nemesis" could be JC if you look/listen to some of his comments and take them literally, and not as an evil one trying to manipulate someone or just lie.

              What did you think about Claire's baby? It looked to me like a mini-Taweret!

              Well, you got me on that one....will have to go to abc.com and see that scene again, I thought they were just coconuts!!

              • 3 votes
              #2.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:47 AM EST
              say what??

              What did you think about Claire's baby? It looked to me like a mini-Taweret! It was sad and weird at the same time. Claire would have never seen the statue as it would have been destroyed long before she arrived on the island (I don't think there's been any reference made to time travel by the 2007 island people - The Others, the Ajira survivors etc) so how would she know what Taweret looked like? And if Jacob is the one associated with Taweret, what with him living in the foot of it and all? Hmmmmm

              It reminded me of Taweret, too - especially the head with the snout and teeth. Claire might not have seen the intact statue but she could have seen the piece of Jacob's tapestry showing Taweret that was tacked on the cabin wall with a large knife, that told Ilana and Bram where they needed to go next. We know Claire was in the cabin at least once.

              • 1 vote
              #2.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:44 AM EST
              pinkcap

              Black Widow - good observation about the thing in Claire's bassinet looking like Taweret. I didn't think of it at the time, but I can see it now. Taweret was the goddess of fertility and rebirth. This new Claire is more aware of the island's mysteries and maybe she's made a statue of Taweret as a talisman for bringing back her baby.

              • 3 votes
              #2.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:22 AM EST
              blackwidow1

              hey again say what??

              I never thought about the tapestry on the wall of the cabin. Interesting and that very well may explain it

              But why would she make her fake baby look like that? Its not exactly an attractive look for an infant. I wonder if for some reason she sees herself as Tawaret - the goddess of birth? Then it makes some sense that she would make the baby in her likeness/image/reflection.

                #2.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:29 AM EST
                mearth1961

                It's spooky and sad...but if blackwidow and say what are on thr right track..then it raises the whole fertility issue for me again. Claire is "claimed" by Nem and obsessed about her baby, (I would have thought a sane Mother would have been RELIEVED to hear her child was safe, off Island, with a trusted friend...but then Claire is no longer sane) possibly identifies herself with Tarawet Goddess of Birth, per freaky crib creature. I truly have come to believe that Ben was unknowingly being used by Nem from the minute he came to the Island as a boy and that is what drove Ben's obsession with the fertility issue?

                • 2 votes
                #2.11 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:42 AM EST
                goodnuf

                Guess I thought it was simply the skull of a boar. Creating a "baby" to look like Tawaret sounds like something LOST would do.

                • 1 vote
                #2.12 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM EST
                Rebecca D

                It's also interesting that Claire still thinks of Aaron as a baby. She seems to have no concept of the amount of time that has passed. She seemed utterly confused when Jin told her Aaron was 3 yrs old.

                I'm not sure if it's significant other than to demonstrate that she's off her rocker, or if it's part of Nem's influence - to keep her looking for her "baby"?

                • 4 votes
                #2.13 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:41 AM EST
                T Bourlon

                Or to tie her to Rousseau, who also had a baby stolen by the Others.

                • 1 vote
                #2.14 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:58 AM EST
                TexanForObama

                I have to admit, I didn't think about Tawaret when I saw the 'baby' in the basinette. I assumed she'd just found an animal skull, and other items, and in her mentally ill state, just created her missing baby. She's probably been carrying it around for quite a while now, and since it doesn't 'age', she had no concept that Aaron would be older now, either. But, it is something to think about, and like someone said earlier, "it is Lost, afterall!" :-)

                • 1 vote
                #2.15 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:42 PM EST
                pinkcap

                BTW....am I the only one who has been wondering for weeks about IF Dogen's costume was just assigned by wardrobe and a coincidence (not!), or if the fact that he wears botha light-colored shirt and a BLACK vest is an intended symbol on the show....not the usual expected garb for a "Zen master"...but a message to us!!??

                Black Rock Steve.....Next week's TV guide confirmed that Dogen was modeled after the 13th century Zen master named Dogen and that his costume on the show is modeled after the outfit worn by him.

                BTW - Next week's show will focus on Sayid.

                  #2.16 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:38 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Anjillina
                • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy? Because it's a scar from an alternate universe - not the one he's in.
                • Who is David's mother? Jack's ex-wife that we've seen on the show before? That was my only thought.
                • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water? Looking at it because it isn't clear. Being sad because he's unable to stop the forthcoming carnage of Nemesis.
                • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island? No clue. Possibly Desmond?
                • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before? Another no clue. It only existed in the alternate universe in which the bomb was detonated. And/or it was protected by Jacob magic or ashes or something.
                • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset? Nope.
                • What does Jacob need Jack to do? Realize how "important" he is. Jack is only going to be the winning candidate if he realizes his own value.
                • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? Ever since before Jack and crew left the island. That's why she left Aaron on a bush. He controls the image of Christian which she followed and at some point had Christian tell her whom to trust before appearing as that person.
                • Here's what bothers me - if you watch the show where they put captions on the prior week's show, they keep calling the LA scenes "A Flash Sideways - these show what happened if the plane hadn't crashed." But that isn't true! It was obvious it wasn't true before because of the Hurley thing. But now it's even more so. Jack has a teenage son! I mean, come on! That's not a "flash sideways of what could have been". If it's not a reality that's going to be merged, it's an alternate universe or something. But the whole "flash sideways" just doesn't work.

                  Cheers - I just love Hurley. I love that he's the only one that can talk to Jacob and I love that he told Jacob that he should just tell him the truth in the future. He's just so nice. I'd rather he be the candidate than Jack if it's an honor - however, I wouldn't wish being stuck on that island on anybody. Also Cheers to the possibility that Claire is going to kill Kate. That would be cool.

                  Jeers - Claire as Rousseau. I don't like it. I understand they're trying to parallel them and everything, but I just don't think she would have voluntarily left Aaron and signed up with Nemesis (even in the guise of her father). And she was with that crew at the fire prior to leaving Aaron, so it's not like she was killed, then brought back to life in the Temple. Just doesn't seem believable to me.

                  • 5 votes
                  #3 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:46 PM EST
                  Inchiki

                  Now you've done it! There's going to be a big "Claire Kills Kate" movement as millions write to the show begging for this to happen. ;)

                  • 5 votes
                  #3.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:43 PM EST
                  Redchilipepper

                  I Love your Claire kills Kate idea! LOL I know Claire threatened it but what if she really went through with it!! We have lost a lot of great characters on this 'Lost' journey, I could stand to lose Kate.

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:01 AM EST
                  say what??

                  I just don't think she would have voluntarily left Aaron and signed up with Nemesis (even in the guise of her father).

                  When Locke went to the cabin to find out how to save the island, Christian and Claire were there. Locke asked where Aaron was and Christian said "he's where he's supposed to be, and that's not here." If Aaron is "where he is supposed to be" then why is Claire looking for him? She was ok with it in the cabin so why is it an issue now?

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:05 AM EST
                  Donuts

                  Anjillina - What if the flash sideways removes the meetings Jacob ever had with the different individuals? When the Island was found to be under water during the terrible CGI effects in the season premiere, perhaps it was such that Jacob had never met with the Losties earlier in their lives, thus never intervening (they were in 1977 when the flash occurred). The only flaw with this theory is Hurley's situation. Jacob did not meet with Hurley until after he returned from the Island. In addition, the show depicts Hurley as having good luck in the flash sideways.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:10 AM EST
                  AshleyKeen

                  I'm all for Claire killing Kate. :P I'm so over Kate.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:27 AM EST
                  Pfemm

                  When Locke went to the cabin to find out how to save the island, Christian and Claire were there. Locke asked where Aaron was and Christian said "he's where he's supposed to be, and that's not here." If Aaron is "where he is supposed to be" then why is Claire looking for him? She was ok with it in the cabin so why is it an issue now?

                  I think that beginning transistion time frame for her is foggy.

                  Also, Did she say that her "friend" (Flocke) told her that the Others had Aaron?

                  imho he would have known exactly where Aaron was. If so... That could be a pretty blatant lie to Claire by Flocke/Nemesis.

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:55 AM EST
                  say what??

                  imho he would have known exactly where Aaron was. If so... That could be a pretty blatant lie to Claire by Flocke/Nemesis.

                  Nemesis does what he accused Jacob of doing - manipulates people when they are vulnerable and pulls their strings like they are puppets. He is running his own little puppet show, claiming people so he can carve them into puppets to do whatever he needs so he can succeed, and when he is done with them he will toss them on the scrap pile. There is always another block of wood waiting to be formed into what he needs.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                  JohnBoy813

                  Pfemm, you say blatent lie, I say manipulation, it is all about getting what you want. This island runs on all kinds of rules, 'you can't kill him', 'smokey can't cross smoke'; what if it is like vampire lore, where a vampire can't come in to someone personal abode unless they are invited in (or perhaps brought in). At this point it looks like Jin is going to take Clair and Flock back to the temple as he knows the way in. In a sense, he is inviting Nemesis into the temple where he can reak havoc. Perhaps this is why Jacob wanted Jack and Hurley are far away from the temple as possible.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:38 AM EST
                  Pfemm

                  At this point it looks like Jin is going to take Clair and Flock back to the temple as he knows the way in. In a sense, he is inviting Nemesis into the temple where he can reak havoc. Perhaps this is why Jacob wanted Jack and Hurley are far away from the temple as possible.

                  Let's not forget that good ol' Sawyer is with Flocke and now by default with Jin... (more than likely)

                  Safety in numbers :)

                    #3.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:56 AM EST
                    T Bourlon

                    I predicted Claire would kill Kate two weeks ago!!! I mean, that's what I'd do if someone stole MY kid! Never mind the fact that Claire apparently doesn't remember abandoning Aaron - clearly Nemesis claimed her at that point in time.

                    • 1 vote
                    #3.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:01 PM EST
                    Lost in Space and Time

                    how does one go about creating a "movement"?, because I am all about Kate meeting her end and soon!

                    • 5 votes
                    #3.11 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:48 PM EST
                    KRCourter

                    Say What?? You ask why Claire was Okay with aaron not being with her before, but not now.

                    Theory: Dogun (I think I spelled that right) said that Claire was "Infected." The Other that she killed with the Ax said that she was remebering things wrong. Perhaps the "infection" is messing with her memory and she doesn't remember being okay with it.

                    Other thoughts: This episode proved to me that Christian is evil. Assuming that the MIB/unLocke is evil: he is friends with Claire, and Claire is now evil. Christian lured Claire away from Aaron and helped turn her into what she is now. Therefore, Christian is in league with MIB and is therefore evil.

                    One last thing. Is it just me, or is Jack's son in the sideways universe the same boy that unLocke chased into the jungle last week?

                      #3.12 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:55 PM EST
                      Anjillina

                      Nah - Jack's son is definitely not jungle boy. Faces are too different. Jungle boy was cuter and looked more like Claire in the face.

                        #3.13 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:01 PM EST
                        Brian Ford

                        The Other that she killed with the Ax said that she was remebering things wrong.

                        Perhaps, but her description of what she remembered is exactly what we were shown when they put Sayid through the same process. The fact that Sayid is walking around not acting like he's pissed about being electrocuted and branded is odd, to me.

                        If the temple crew is concerned about whether people to have an accurate recollection of their treatment, they should probably be more open about the treatments they provide, to the people they're treating.

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.14 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:08 PM EST
                        TexanForObama

                        Ha! Anjillina! Too funny about cheering on the 'killing of Kate'! Of course I doubt that will happen. I think that if there IS such a thing as "tying it all up with a bow" for at least one of the storylines here, is that at the end of all this, the writers probably see it as Jack and Kate will finally end up together. Sawyer's love is dead, Hurley's love is dead, Sayid's love is dead, etc. (Although the Kwons are still alive, as are the Nadlers, so...) What am I thinking?!? It's Lost! I have no idea what I'm talking about... ;-)

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.15 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:49 PM EST
                        JohnBoy813

                        Let's start the chant now "Kill Kate, Kill Kate" - repeat until done. :)

                          #3.16 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 PM EST
                          Pfemm

                          Theory: Dogun (I think I spelled that right) said that Claire was "Infected." The Other that she killed with the Ax said that she was remebering things wrong. Perhaps the "infection" is messing with her memory and she doesn't remember being okay with it.

                          I forgot about Claire being branded/"tortured" ...

                          I had this thought last night.

                          What if after that business with the "torture"... Claire did take the pill and it is a poison to kill the "infection".... But it makes you sick/delusional before it gets better... She breaks out of the Temple... Recovers in the Jungle but Flocke finds her and befriends her and manipulates her foggy memories. Which is why the Other says she's remembering things wrong..

                          I don't know if that makes sense.

                          • 4 votes
                          #3.17 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:44 PM EST
                          AutoTechDude

                          Did anyone else that when Not-Locke was showing Sawyer the numbers on the rock in the prior episode that he didn't mention Kate? Is she #16 (because he never pointed out that number) or is she NOT a "candidate" , meaning that she quite possibly could die this season? Hmmm...

                          • 1 vote
                          #3.18 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:04 PM EST
                          Anjillina

                          They showed the equivalent of all the relevant numbers. I think Sawyer was 16. (someone posted a list of them last week).

                            #3.19 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:12 AM EST
                            ME-again

                            I noticed that Kate wasn't assigned a number. There was no Austin listed. BTW: I'm definitely not in the "Hate Kate" group. I like her, and I don't want her to be killed off. But you guys have fun with your movement, and as the season progresses, we'll all see how you make out with that.

                              #3.20 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:19 PM EST
                              pinkcap

                              On the wheel in the lighthouse, #51 is assigned to an Austen. Could be Kate, could be her father.

                              • 2 votes
                              #3.21 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 PM EST
                              Reply
                              Syntactic Tree

                              I'm sorry... this may seem like a dumb question... but is "Jacob's asset" a reference to something specific I missed?

                              Otherwise, I wholly agree about Hugo and Miles. Every show needs its comic relief, and they play it to a T!

                              I didn't very much mind the Jack episode, especially because I don't think we've ever heard of him having a son before, have we?

                              They should definitely bring back Julie Bowen; she's an incredible actress. Hopefully she's David's mother.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#4 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:47 PM EST
                              Steve Watts

                              I'm sorry... this may seem like a dumb question... but is "Jacob's asset" a reference to something specific I missed?

                              That may've been phrased a bit oddly, so let me clarify. By Jacob's "asset," I'm referring to whoever he wanted to bring to the Island. I'm convinced that even if he wasn't completely honest about the reasons for the lighthouse, he was being honest about needing someone to come -- maybe via Rebecca's theory above that he needed the lighthouse smashed for that to happen.

                              But, since we don't really know for sure if the person is a he, she, or they, I just used the term "asset." As in, the way a CIA agent might use the word to describe someone they need to come in contact with to complete an operation.

                              • 3 votes
                              #4.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 PM EST
                              Syntactic Tree

                              Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

                              Sorry I didn't understand. I thought it was a reference to something we should have picked up on prior to this episode. With Lost one never knows what they missed.

                              • 1 vote
                              #4.2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:39 PM EST
                              TexanForObama

                              Julie is on Modern Family now - but as someone stated earlier, they weren't married long ago enough to have had David. (Poorly worded on my part, but I hope you get what I mean!) :-) Must be someone else?

                              • 1 vote
                              #4.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:54 PM EST
                              Reply
                              ranturn

                              So much research, so much to post. I cannot believe the amount of clues we were given tonight. What an episode we were treated to tonight!

                              My first revelation is that Jack was beckoned to the lighthouse by Jacob and will serve as the island’s beacon of light. I fully believe that he is the one Jacob has now chosen. And as Jack points out, how did they not notice this lighthouse before? Does it move like the island?

                              And the clues: David, Jack’s son. I’m being blown away by this revelation as well. King David was a musician. He had shepherd roots.

                              As per Wikipedia: “He was the second king of the united Kingdom of Israel according to the Bible. He is depicted as a righteous king, although not without fault, as well as an acclaimed warrior, musician and poet, traditionally credited for composing many of the psalms contained in the Book of Psalms.”

                              And of course, the analogy to Goliath – would that be Nemesis?

                              And who is the mother? David has such deep blue eyes. Where have we seen eyes like that before?

                              Fantaisie Impromptu – The music notes David had on his desk. As per Wikipedia: “The piece uses many cross-rhythms (the right hand plays sixteenth notes against the left hand playing triplets) and a ceaselessly moving note figuration and is in cut time (2/2).”

                              There were many references to the number 2 and 3 tonight. The address on David’s house was 223 and Jin kept telling Claire that Aaron was 3 years old.

                              David had a poster on his wall that said Meat Coat. I found this on Rocklopedia Fakebandica: From the TV show Lost (11/03/04). A series of flashbacks in "The Moth" episode shows bassist Charlie (Dominic Monaghan) in Australia trying to convince his brother Liam (Neil Hopkins) to reunite their band driveSHAFT. Charlie has a deal for the band to open for this band on tour- but the deal's a no go if Liam is a no-show. Liam has a young daughter, a nice house, and is happy to have kicked drugs and gotten away from show biz. A bitter Charlie storms out, strung out, only to board the doomed plane that strands the cast of castaways on their mysterious island.

                              Also, Jacob’s instructions to Hurley were to turn the wheel at the lighthouse 108 degrees. This wheel looked almost identical to the donkey wheel. Who is 108? Is it Widmore?

                              And when Jack saw his house in the mirror, it reminded me of the magical mirror in one of the Harry Potter movies when Harry saw his parents in this mirror. And on this mirror was inscribed, I show not your face but your heart's desire.

                              And another baseball reference: there was a picture of a baseball field in a frame on a wall in Jack’s apt. And Jack’s son is a Red Sox fan.

                              When Hurley asks why Jack came back to the island, Jack says, “I was broken and I was stupid enough to think that this place could fix me.” I believe that this line from Jack foreshadows what we know as Lost fans to be true….. that the island will fix him.

                              On a side note: just who were those skeletons that were in the cave and what was Shannon’s inhaler doing there? Did she ever go to the caves with Sayid?

                              • 9 votes
                              #5 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:52 PM EST
                              BlackRock Steve

                              Hi ranturn, Wow, are you fast on the music references or what!!?

                              And another baseball reference: there was a picture of a baseball field...

                              F.Y.I...in case you don't know, Cuse & Lindelof are HUGE major league baseball fans, so with most writers, expect to see them reference "their favorite things" and something they know about without having to research it.

                              you do know

                              When Hurley asks why Jack came back to the island, Jack says, “I was broken and I was stupid enough to think that this place could fix me.” I believe that this line from Jack foreshadows what we know as Lost fans to be true….. that the island will fix him.

                              For me, it is that the island gives Jack a "second chance" to "fix" oneself!!....It's a chance at personal redemption.

                              • 1 vote
                              #5.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:17 PM EST
                              Steve Watts

                              And the clues: David, Jack’s son. I’m being blown away by this revelation as well. King David was a musician. He had shepherd roots.

                              Good catch. I'm not sure it will necessarily mean anything, but I do like how you think. We know the writers love to pepper in religious references as often as possible.

                              • 4 votes
                              #5.2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:23 PM EST
                              blackwidow1

                              When Hurley asks why Jack came back to the island, Jack says, “I was broken and I was stupid enough to think that this place could fix me.” I believe that this line from Jack foreshadows what we know as Lost fans to be true….. that the island will fix him.

                              I saw this line as important too. I think part of Jack's "problem" in the original timeline - that part of him that was lost - was his need to fix everything. He was criticized by both his father and his ex-wife (and probably others that I'm not thinking of at the moment) for his need to fix everything and his inability to cope with the fact that he was not able to and will never be able to fix everything for everyone. It was his obsession. It was what consumed and controlled him and destroyed his relationships with other people.

                              I think the first of the 12 steps toward battling addiction (obsession) is to accept the things you cannot change aka fix. Jack's realizing that and finding a way to fix himself. Like BlackRock Steve says, "personal redemption."

                              Although, I think has been discovering this on his own, not necessarily with Jacob's help. I have a feeling that Jacob's just thrown him a curve ball and thrown Jack back into crisis. We'll see soon how this plays out!

                              • 5 votes
                              #5.3 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:45 PM EST
                              Lostie Girl

                              I think the first of the 12 steps toward battling addiction (obsession) is to accept the things you cannot change aka fix. Jack's realizing that and finding a way to fix himself. Like BlackRock Steve says, "personal redemption."

                              I agree blackwidow1, maybe he will need to not save someone (Kate?) in order to redeem himself and fully become self-realized.

                              BTW Blackwidow1, you always have wonderful insights on this site.

                              • 2 votes
                              #5.4 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:50 PM EST
                              Donuts

                              Love the information. However, according to a friend the snapshot of the wheel in last night's episode reflects the name Wallace in the 108 position. In addition, it was crossed off.

                              • 1 vote
                              #5.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:32 AM EST
                              AshleyKeen

                              according to a friend the snapshot of the wheel in last night's episode reflects the name Wallace in the 108 position. In addition, it was crossed off.

                              Thus signifying the firing of David Wallace after the merger of Sabre and Dunder-Mifflin, signaling that someone who can't run a paper company has no chance at being the protector of the Island.

                              THE OFFICE IS CROSSING OVER, DUDE!

                              :P

                              • 12 votes
                              #5.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:32 AM EST
                              Donuts

                              LMAO! The Office is great!

                                #5.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:01 AM EST
                                Steve Watts

                                However, according to a friend the snapshot of the wheel in last night's episode reflects the name Wallace in the 108 position.

                                Here's a completely different, off-the-wall theory. What if the number 108 doesn't really matter?

                                We know Jacob probably knew that Jack would see his name and smash it, that seems to have been the whole point of sending him with Hurley. The wheel started at a low number (probably below 23), since it was still ascending after it had gone past Jack's name. What if Jacob just chose a high number so that Jack could see his name and smash the mirror? Any high number would do. It may not be Wallace who's important at all. It might just be he wanted to give Jack ample opportunity to see his own name.

                                • 4 votes
                                #5.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:30 AM EST
                                JohnBoy813

                                Ranturn,

                                If I remember correctly some of the Losties lived in the caves for a time but I don't remember is Shannon was one of them. As for the skeltons, I have always thought they were Rose and Bernard since the last time we saw them they were living the 'good life' and were upset when they were discovered by the group heading for the swan station.

                                  #5.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:02 PM EST
                                  blackwidow1

                                  Steve,

                                  Since last night, I've been wondering if the number 108 is just a red herring. It was a name of someone we don't know ... and it was crossed off. You're probably right that it was just a ploy to get Jack looking down at the names until he saw his. I thought that Jack's reaction being far different that Sawyer's was interesting thought. Jack's smashing things where Sawyer was relatively calm. Maybe it can simply be attributed to Flocke being there to answer Sawyer's questions where Jack is left in the dark as to what the names mean - or more importantly what his name means on that wheel. And he saw his old house too.

                                  I would have very much liked if 108 turned out to be Desmond though

                                  Ranturn,

                                  Yes, Shannon was in the caves with Jack and the other losties that moved to the caves for protection and water. In fact, she had her asthma attack there that Jack helped her through until someone could wrestle the asthma medication from Sawyer - or rather kiss him for it.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #5.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:28 PM EST
                                  Brian Ford

                                  Here's a completely different, off-the-wall theory. What if the number 108 doesn't really matter?

                                  That's a stretch, though. I mean, if the idea was "just" to get Jack to make sure he sees his name, couldn't he have just mentioned that their names are on there? I mean, even if he hadn't said anything at all, it seems they'd have noted the names, and then turned the wheel to their own names out of curiosity.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #5.11 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:31 PM EST
                                  ranturn

                                  Thanks blackwidow1. It was just too long ago for me to remember that Shannon actually lived in the caves with them. I really should have rewatched some of the prior seasons during the summer!

                                    #5.12 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM EST
                                    Brian Ford

                                    On a side note: just who were those skeletons that were in the cave and what was Shannon’s inhaler doing there? Did she ever go to the caves with Sayid?

                                    I was under the impression that it was Rose and Bernard. I realize they've never said this, but there are plenty of clues: They found a white rock, and a black rock with them. They went off to live in the jungle in the past. The skeletons are said to have been 40-50 years old. The producers said in an interview that they are their to "prove" that they weren't making it up as they go along, and showing the "skeletons" of Rose and Bernard in an early season before we even know that they'd all end up in the past.

                                    I'll be shocked if it turns out to be anyone else.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #5.13 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:16 PM EST
                                    TexanForObama

                                    Ranturn - call me crazy, but could JULIET be David's mother? It would be an interesting twist - they liked each other first on the island, but "couldn't" stay together; likewise in the 'real world' or alternate universe (or whatever we're calling it) they "couldn't" stay together either. While certainly a dark-eyed man can father a blue-eyed child, it was just something that occurred to me while watching last night. Hopefully just because Juliet is now on "V", doesn't mean we have seen the last of her? :-)

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #5.14 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:04 PM EST
                                    Brian Ford

                                    With that said, I fully believe that they're making most of the details up as they go, even if they had a basic roadmap with a few major stops pre-planned.

                                    In other words, I suspect they put the skeletons there, gave them some stones, with the idea that they had plenty of options for *who* those skeletons would be, later in the series, based on where they went with some other plot issues. I'd be shocked if they could prove somehow that they always knew that it was going to be whoever it ends up being.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #5.15 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:06 PM EST
                                    sdaisy

                                    David has such deep blue eyes. Where have we seen eyes like that before?

                                    Kate has pretty blue eyes.

                                      #5.16 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:55 PM EST
                                      Brian Ford

                                      Well, my wife threw a loop into my Rose/Bernard theory.

                                      The stones in the scales in the cave were black and white, much like the stones on Adam and Eve, so that seems to point the significance away from R&B.

                                      I still think the connections are strong enough that it could be them, though.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #5.17 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:02 PM EST
                                      belle42

                                      Good point Brian. Maybe Adam/Eve are Adam/Steve -- a prior set of Jacob/Nemesis hosts.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #5.18 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:26 PM EST
                                      Brian Ford

                                      Well, Jack did say in the episode where they discovered the skeletons that it was a man and a woman.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #5.19 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:17 PM EST
                                      belle42

                                      Darn...well maybe the host doesn't need to be male (yes I'm contradicting my earlier theory, but this is Lost, that happens a lot)

                                        #5.20 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:18 AM EST
                                        mearth1961

                                        Total left field - What if it turns out to be Desmond and Penny? The age Jack assumed they were when discovered doesn't really signify with the time jumps and all. Penny had advanced information and scientific resources for someone who supposedly has disavowed her father Charles Widdemore ( a former Other Leader who sucessfully negotiated a 30 yr truce on the Island before being overthrown by Ben). Recall that she had "listeners" posted in the Artic Circle who knew exactly what they were looking for when the Desmond caused hatch explosion occurred and who was on a ship exactly where she needed to be to rescue the Oceanic 6. (Additional side note-Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Penny and Farraday half-sibling?) So perhaps, this is one of these really bizarre situations where for some yet to be disclosed reason Penny & Des both have to return to the Island (along with their son Charlie) to return the Island to it's balance somehow? Des swore he would NEVER leave Penny again, so they could potentially be the Adam/Eve couple?

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #5.21 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:43 AM EST
                                        ME-again

                                        Hey, sDaisy! Juliet has pretty blue eyes. So does Locke, but I'm guessing Juliet is David's mother and not Locke. At first I thought it could be Kate who is away from home and being chased by the FBI. But, you would have thought that Jack and Kate would have spotted each other on the plane. Juliet was never on the plane.

                                          #5.22 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:50 PM EST
                                          Superman2001

                                          Jack and Kate did run into each other as Kate was coming out of the lavatory. She swiped Jack's pen.

                                            #5.23 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:05 PM EST
                                            Reply
                                            tatersmom
                                          • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy? Because it didn't happen during his childhoood. It happened on the island when he was a adult, before the alternate timeline/flash sideways began.
                                          • Who is David's mother? Because everyone seems linked to everyone else off the island, I'm going out on a limb here and guessing Juliet is Jack's ex-wife and mother of David.
                                          • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water? Not really sure on this one, trying to restore the healing powers?
                                          • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island? Possibly Desmond. He has to be tied the island somehow.
                                          • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before? It wasn't meant to be seen until now. Sort of like the cabin. It's seen when it's time to be seen an by whom it's meant to be seen.
                                          • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset? Nope.
                                          • What does Jacob need Jack to do? Believe in himself and come to accept his future role on the island.
                                          • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? Since her home was blown up by the mercenaries in New Othertown/Dharmaville. I still believe she was mortallly wounded in that attack.
                                            • 1 vote
                                            Reply#6 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:07 PM EST
                                            T Bourlon

                                            Oh yeah, Juliet had to do that, I totally forgot! Thanks!

                                              #6.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:06 PM EST
                                              TexanForObama

                                              Ha! Tatersmom, we on on the same page! I, too, thought of Juliet as a possibility for David's mother! Nice twist...

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #6.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:06 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              SilentShogun

                                              I'm starting to think the nuke worked and created a "parrallel timeline".... In the end i think everyone on the island will have to die so their alternate selfs can continue on as if the crash never happened....Someone will live on the island to assume the roles of Jacob and Nemesis and the island will be safe....We will probably see the new good/bad guys sitting on the island talking at the series finale.

                                              I'm not sure how the alternate selfs play into this with other characters interacting with the alternate selfs...like the temple guardian at the piano conservatory audition...

                                              • 6 votes
                                              Reply#7 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:11 PM EST
                                              Lostie Girl

                                              SilentShogun - great point on how the series might end. Sawyer and Jack sitting on the beach watching a ship or airplane crash and debate over the castaways.

                                              • 7 votes
                                              #7.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:24 PM EST
                                              pinkcap

                                              And who is the mother? David has such deep blue eyes. Where have we seen eyes like that before?

                                              ranturn...if you read my post below, I thought the mother could be either Sarah, Juliet, or Ana Lucia. I believe that Juliet had blue eyes.

                                              Thanks for the information on the music and David. It was great.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:11 AM EST
                                              ranturn

                                              pinkcap - I did notice that you mentioned Juliet and thought that was a great observation. She did have blue eyes. I didn't even think of her as I am too hung up on the hope that she will meet Sawyer in the sideways world and have coffee! But wouldn't that be a kicker if she is Jack's ex wife?

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #7.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:28 AM EST
                                              NCL70506

                                              "Someone will live on the island to assume the roles of Jacob and Nemesis and the island will be safe....We will probably see the new good/bad guys sitting on the island talking at the series finale."

                                              I have also thought of this as the way they will end the show. I think it will be Jack and Locke for many reasons. These two have seen things from completely opposite perspectives from day one, mainly derived from the free will vs. destiny concepts. Locke is already taken by Nemesis, and Jacob seems to have an important plan for Jack.

                                              I read an article detailing an interview with producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof dated January 5, 2010 regarding the final season of Lost. When asked about a particularly emotional story for a character this season, Carlton Cuse stated the following: "Jack and Locke have always been at the center of the show, that dilemma of faith vs. reason, and the conflict between those two characters has been there since the beginning. It's very exciting to bring that relationship to its conclusion."

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #7.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:58 AM EST
                                              pinkcap

                                              ranturn... I agree that Juliet turning out to be Jack's ex-wife would be a kicker. It would create a triangle with Sawyer and Jack fighting over the same girl in the sideways world. In the LA X article, someone made a great comment that the X could be a variable. In this case, LA are the same - Jack and Sawyer. The X or variable would change - instead of Kate, it would be Juliet. Just speculation for something that may not even be right, but it's fun to think about it.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #7.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:29 AM EST
                                              JohnBoy813

                                              Pinkcap,

                                              I think we can rule out Ana-Lucia as the mother as she does not have blue eye, I have not paid attention to the color of Jack's eyes but if I remember my genetics at least one partner would need to have blue eyes in order to have an offspring with blue eyes. I do like the idea of Juliette since they made a point in several episodes; especially last seasons finale; of focusing on her eyes.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:09 PM EST
                                              Debra Murphy

                                              If my memory serves, Cuselof have said, way back when, that the last shot of the show will be jack and Kate sitting on the beach. We don't know which beach, Island or California or whatever, but if I was forced to bet the farm on the conclusion, I'd have to go right now that Jack is being called to replace Jacob, and that Kate, whose name was not on the list, will stay with him--not as Nem, mind you, but as Jack's companion.

                                              And while we're guessing "who's whos", I think I'd have to guess that Jack's ex and David's mother turns out to be Juliet, who we will soon see meeting Sawyer and offering to go to coffee "Dutch" with him.

                                              And as fpr Jacob's asset: my vote is also Desmond/Odysseus.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #7.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:11 PM EST
                                              NCL70506

                                              Hi Debra - I do recall the producers stating the very last scene will be Jack and Kate sitting on a beach. Maybe after a showdown between Jack (as Jacob's replacement) and Locke/Nemesis, Jack and Kate will sit on the Island's beach and reflect on everything that has happened.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:46 PM EST
                                              Anjillina

                                              Ugh. That means Kate is going to last til the end. That sucks.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              #7.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                                              Lost in Space and Time

                                              Debra - were they giving a legitimate answer to a question or was it one of their many, many, many, many, many, tongue in cheek responses? They seem to be closely guarding the final episode so I'd be surprised that they were willing to reveal such a critical piece of information, well maybe not as surprised as completely disgusted that the last scene of a show I so much love will be of the two characters I really don't like.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:35 PM EST
                                              Shredder6Deleted
                                              Magpie1970

                                              As long as both parents have the recessive gene for blue (b), it's possible for two brown-eyed people to have a blue-eyed child.

                                              Remember those tables from high school?

                                              B b

                                              B BB Bb

                                              b Bb bb

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #7.12 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:15 PM EST
                                              Magpie1970

                                              Okay...the table didn't copy over as planned, but you get the idea :)

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #7.13 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:22 PM EST
                                              Anjillina

                                              Magpie - I would have never known the table was wrong - just thinking how smart you are. lol. Here's me reading your first post "Wow - fancy genetical stuff!" Then I read the next one and was like - oh - something didn't copy right. OK. (I don't think I went that far in the biology class).

                                                #7.14 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:39 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                mearth1961

                                                •Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?
                                                Because it's one of the things that also exist the sideways reality that I think they sense on some level?

                                                •Who is David's mother?
                                                I'm going to say it was Sarah, since as much as some things have change, many things remain the same?

                                                •What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?
                                                Perhaps it works the same way as we come to assume the Lighthouse does and he can "watch" or "see" the Candidates? Isn't water a divination tool?

                                                •Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?
                                                I'm thinking we'll discover it's Widdemore!

                                                •Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?
                                                Maybe the same reason they didn't notice the statue? You have to be approaching the Island from a specific direction?

                                                •Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?
                                                I think that depended entirely on how Jack reacted. Jacob repeats often about "choices" and I suspect he plans for each choice a person might make? Jack could have gone along with Hurley and just positioned at 108 (there's that number again...push the button every 108 minutes right? I wonder that Jack at some point doesn't question that coincidence?) and perhaps that would have allowed the asset to navigate to the Island. But Jacob had to know that there was the more likely chance that Jack would react in his typical emotional knee jerk way, so he has other avenues for his asset to attempt.

                                                •What does Jacob need Jack to do?
                                                We saw for several Seasons how Jack and Locke butted heads, Man of Faith (Locke) vs. Man of Science (Jack).
                                                But in realizing that Jacob has watched him since he was a very young boy through a "magic lighthouse mirror" Jack must finally stop being the Doubting Thomas? To accept that there is something beyond what can be explained, that there was some kind of "destiny" that brought him to the Island and it wasn't just bad luck or coincidence?

                                                •How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? I still can't accept that she didn't have a scratch on her after her house blew up and it was immediately after that she followed Christian and disappeared...so I say it happened during the battle with the mercenaries?

                                                Cheers: All things Hurley. Loved the Obi-wan and Good times lines especially.

                                                Jeers: Not enough answers!!!!! Seriously, did we learn anything that we didn't suspect already?

                                                • 6 votes
                                                Reply#8 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:13 PM EST
                                                blackwidow1
                                                • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?

                                                Hmmm … the easy answer is that he was 7 when the procedure was performed. Beyond that, I think it’s an allusion to the sideways flashes and something that will be used later to mesh the two timelines together

                                                • Who is David's mother?

                                                No idea whatsoever. I was genuinely surprised that we didn’t find that out from a picture when Jack used the secret key to get into her house. It could be his wife/ex-wife Sarah from the original timeline. If not her, I’m clueless.

                                                • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?

                                                Making us think he’s been resurrected! But that's not the case ... so ... just to confuse us momentarily.

                                                • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?

                                                This was the question of the night for me. Hurley told Jack that Jacob said to set the degrees to 108. I’m not a “numbers” person but I do remember that there have been people who have posted in previous weeks that the if you add up the Lost numbers (4-8-15-16-23-42) they equal 108. So I thought “ah hah – who is a conglomeration of all these numbers? Who can equal all of our Losties combined?” and … I have no idea! It’s gotta be someone big and awesome. But have we met this person before. This one will take some time to come up with a credible response.

                                                • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?

                                                An invisibility cloak? I think Hurley was somewhat correct … they haven’t been looking for it. Classic example of missing the forest for the trees. And they didn’t need to see it before this particular time so it wasn’t revealed to them.

                                                • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?

                                                I certainly hope so. But after Jacob’s conversation with Hurley, it may have just been a ploy to get Jack to think about, to “see,” what he needed to see or understand before the next stage of the game begins

                                                • What does Jacob need Jack to do?

                                                I think Jacob needs Jack to believe in himself. To start looking at himself through his own eyes rather than how he thinks his father, Christian, sees him. Jack was physically affected by Hurley’s telling him that Jacob said, “you have what it takes.” He is still looking for approval from his dead father. Jacob wants him to find approval of himself from within.

                                                • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

                                                In which form? We still don’t know who was impersonating/occupying Christian. And I would assume that Nemesis can only been appearing as Locke since the return to the island since the death of Jacob. So, if he was influencing Claire before the past few days, then it would have to have been in some form we haven’t seen.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#9 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:13 PM EST
                                                Inchiki

                                                As I'm reading the posts, I'm reminded that posters have noted that "daddy issues" are also a major theme of the show. Which makes your answer about what Jack needs to do very appealing. The fact that Christian's body is missing is not just literal, but metaphorical (am I using the word right?). Jack finding some reconciliation with his father would "fix" Jack--and this would be manifest in Jack needing to find Christian and bury him.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #9.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:56 PM EST
                                                Pfemm

                                                Speaking of Christian's body...

                                                When Hurley and Jack are in the cave and Jack tells Hurley that he smashed the coffin up because the body was gone...

                                                It made me wonder... What if in the Sideways timeline when the airline finally gets Jack the coffin... it, too, is empty.

                                                hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... :)

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #9.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:00 PM EST
                                                Magpie1970

                                                Blackwidow - awesome...'invisibility cloak'. I LOVE Harry Potter. The books are truly amazing!!!

                                                  #9.3 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:35 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  Inchiki

                                                  The numbers are degrees!! The numbers are degrees!! So who is 108, why didn’t Hurley or Jack ever think to look?

                                                  • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy? Perhaps it was a doctor who was a Dharma employee who never made it to the Island in the 70’s.
                                                  • Who is David's mother? Bag o' nothin' on this one.
                                                  • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water? He was multi-tasking, checking the progress of Smoke by checking the murkiness of the water and waiting for Hurley.
                                                  • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island? I’d prefer it to be Faraday, just so we can have someone explain this dual timeline stuff.
                                                  • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before? It is like Jacob’s cabin, moves in time/space.
                                                  • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset? The “asset” will get to the Island one way or another, as it seems that there are some things destined. May have been more convenient, but no “biggie”.
                                                  • What does Jacob need Jack to do? Since there are only five candidates left, I’m guessing two will follow Smoke (Sawyer and Sayid) and two will follow Jacob (Hurley and Jin), making Jack the one that tips the scales.
                                                  • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? Ever since she started seeing dead people (Christian).
                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#10 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:29 PM EST
                                                  Inchiki

                                                  Okay, had another thought as I dreamt about time travel in the brief period of sleep between reading your posts and daybreak. Since there are parallels throughout the series, the recent comments about Desmond struck a nerve, esp BlackRock Steve's 'bout Desmond controlling his destiny (#2.3). Similar to Desmond jumping within his timeline, our survivors are perhaps jumping between their timelines (and that's why they have their deja vu moments as they are aware on a subconcious level). Maybe what Jack has to do is to find his "constant"--like reuniting with his wife--and stop the flipping between timelines. Just saying.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #10.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  Herbcules74

                                                  Wow. To me that was a great episode. Before I get started on what I saw tonight I just have a question from last week. I noticed a few comments last week about Rose and Bernard being in LA when they were shown to have lived in New York. On tonight's repeat of last weeks episode with the captions they actually referenced that. Does anyone else remember that the box company that Locke worked for was previously in Texas, or was that just my imagination. Why is it now in L.A.? Anyway.....before I answer Steve's questions I just have some random thoughts and observations.

                                                  Christian Shepherd had a bottle of McCutchon scotch at his house.

                                                  Hurley telling Jack that Kate wasn't invited to go with them, it had to be just Jack and him.

                                                  Jack and Hurley walking through the woods "old school" style, going somewhere to do something they don't understand.

                                                  Are the skeletons in the caves Rose and Bernard. Part of me wants to say they definitely are. But if they are Rose and Bernard how did they manage to stay in 1977 when all the other losties returned to their proper time. Is it because they were far enough away from the blast when the bomb went off?

                                                  Questions:

                                                  • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?

                                                  I found that strange. I know Juliet removed his appendix on the Island but how would that be possible if he had it out as a kid. I know the new timeline is very different from the original but why in this timeline did Jack have his appendix out as a kid and the other timeline he didn't?

                                                  • Who is David's mother?

                                                  I'm assuming Jack's original wife Sara. That is assuming he still performed the surgery on her to fix her spine.

                                                  • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?

                                                  Fishing? No clue.

                                                  • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?

                                                  I will refrain from answering this one because it may end up being the trivia question this week.

                                                  • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?

                                                  It was hidden behind a Romulan cloaking field.

                                                  • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?

                                                  No, he sent them their so Jack would realize that he does "have what it takes"

                                                  • What does Jacob need Jack to do?

                                                  Become the next Jacob.

                                                  • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

                                                  Ever since he appeared to her as Christian. For me this kind of confirms that Smokey/Nemesis is the one that was appearing as Christian.

                                                  One last point. Did anyone else catch that Kate's name was on the compass in the lighthouse and that it wasn't crossed out. Number 51, or the 51 degree hash mark was the name Austen. Why does it appear on the compass and not on the wall of the cave. How does Jacob use the lighthouse to see into his subjects lives. Is the lighthouse what he uses to travel to the places that appear in the mirrors. I feel like this episode answered a lot of questions but I just can't make sense of the answers yet. BTW, I knew when Claire said that she wasn't alone, that she had a "friend", I instantly said it has to be Nemesis. When he shows up at her camp at the end is Sawyer still with him? Time to get some sleep and ponder these questions. It looks like it's going to be a very unproductive day at work tomorrow.

                                                  Herb

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  Reply#11 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:32 PM EST
                                                  ranturn

                                                  Since the lighthouse wheel reminded me of the donkey wheel, perhaps that is how he can travel to the places in the mirror?

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #11.1 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:51 PM EST
                                                  pinkcap

                                                  Herbcules.. We don't know if Kate's name isn't on the cave wall. We can just see the names they wanted us to see.

                                                  ranturn....I like that idea. I thought he just used it to watch them from the island, but it could serve a dual purpose of transporting him to the place he's watching.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #11.2 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:58 PM EST
                                                  blackwidow1

                                                  Herb,

                                                  I just rewatched really slowly the lighthouse part of this episode and 51 is indeed Austen and her name is not crossed off.

                                                  108 is Wallace (which was mentioned by someone here tonight already - good eyes!)

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #11.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:44 AM EST
                                                  BlackRock Steve

                                                  F.Y.I...108 = Wallace, but interesting to note that it is crossed off!?

                                                  Also, just a couple above it: 104 = Lewis, as in Charlotte Lewis!

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #11.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:34 AM EST
                                                  The.Good.Foot

                                                  Did I miss something?? Maybe just an early morning for me, but who is WALLACE??

                                                    #11.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:51 AM EST
                                                    say what??

                                                    Herb, #11

                                                    Christian Shepherd had a bottle of McCutchon scotch at his house.

                                                    Widmore and Anthony Cooper also drank MacCutcheon and Sayid was drinking it at the bar when he met Ilana who ended up taking him in handcuffs on Ajira 316. It seems to be the preferred drink of "team Nemesis."

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #11.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:35 AM EST
                                                    TiredMom

                                                    Does anyone else remember that the box company that Locke worked for was previously in Texas, or was that just my imagination. Why is it now in L.A.?

                                                    Being form Orange County, I remember Locke working for a box company in Tustin. As is Tustin, CA. Not Texas.

                                                      #11.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:33 PM EST
                                                      Herbcules74

                                                      Tustin...that was it. I don't know why I was thinking Texas. Thank You for jogging my memory.

                                                        #11.8 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:49 AM EST
                                                        dcotts42

                                                        Maybe Light house has some relation to Lamp post one sees ahead and one sees behind.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #11.9 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:04 AM EST
                                                        Debra Murphy

                                                        Nice catch on the McCutcheon! It seems to run as an ongoing signal of some sort...perhaps of those walking on the Dark Side? Widmore, obviously, but Sayid at the bar when he's approached by Ilana...and help me here, where did Des, Charlie & Hurley get that bottle they found and drank on the beach, was it from the Hatch?

                                                          #11.10 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:11 AM EST
                                                          pinkcap

                                                          Say What??

                                                          Great observation about the whiskey. It turns out it's a fictional brand named after a Royal Navy admiral named Anderson McCutcheon, "the most decorated admiral in history. " The whiskey has been used in other episodes: Flashes Before Your Eyes, Man From Tallahasse, Shape of Things to Come, He's Our You. Remember when Sayid met Ilana at a bar? He was ordering this whiskey.

                                                          There is a page on Lostpedia dedicated to the whiskey

                                                          http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/MacCutcheon_whisky

                                                          At the bottom of the page, there is also a reference to a MacCutcheon - a variation of a French defense opening in the game of Chess. Chess is a game that has been featured on Lost and if I'm remembering correctly, I believe it was featured in the Alice in Wonderland book - Through the Looking Glass. In the story, Alice was a pawn and the other chess pieces were alive.

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #11.11 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:47 AM EST
                                                          Magpie1970

                                                          What if MacCutcheon is what's polluting the spring?

                                                            #11.12 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:38 PM EST
                                                            belle42

                                                            Let me drink from the pool then

                                                            MacCutcheon and water -- the cure to whatever ails you!

                                                              #11.13 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:41 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              pinkcap

                                                              It was an interesting episode. I always love episodes with Hurley. Leave it to Hurley to give us another Star Wars reference about Jacob being like Obi Wan Kenobi. He's actually pretty right on about that.

                                                              Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy? That is a good question. It felt like Jack just noticed the scar for the first time. It's as if they took Jack from the original world, wiped his memories, replaced him with new memories, and dropped him into this world.

                                                              Who is David's mother? At first I thought it would be Sarah - Jack's ex-wife, but when they didn't show who she is, I thought either a) they couldn't get the actress to come to Hawaii to film the scene, or b) the mother will turn out to be someone we know, like maybe Juliet or Ana Lucia.

                                                              Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island? At first he said 108 degrees which got me excited because that is what the numbers add up to and that could make this person important. My first thought was Desmond and I'm hoping I'm right because it would be good to see Desmond again.

                                                              Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before? Smoke and mirrors?

                                                              Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset? I don't think so. I have a feeling that the nemesis knows about it and is wathcing. Maybe Jacob was hoping that Jack would destroy it so that the nemesis can't use it.

                                                              What does Jacob need Jack to do? Fix himself, believe in himself, and lead those who remain after the temple is attacked. I mentioned two weeks ago, that I saw something similar in Jack and Dogen. I think Jack is to take his place because Dogen will be killed. I also thought that there was something similar about Lennon and Hurley. Hurley will take over for Lennon when he is killed. Jin just gave Claire information on how to get into the temple and she will pass that information onto FLocke. He's going to try to recruit and those that won't join him, he'll probably kill. I'm hoping Miles can escape.

                                                              How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire? Claire and Sayid both came close to dying - Claire when the cabin exploded and Sayid when he was shot. I'm thinking that the nemesis doesn't enter them, but is able to put some type of bug (for lack of a better word) in them that grows until it takes over their body.

                                                              When Hurley was turning the wheel at the lighthouse, one of the pictures that Jack saw looked like the Temple where Jin and Sun were married. The next picture looked like a church, but I did not recognize it. If Jacob was watching everyone with the lighthouse, that would mean he assigned Jack his number before he was touched. Jack said he grew up in that house and he hasn't lived for awhile.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              Reply#12 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:39 PM EST
                                                              say what??

                                                              When Hurley was turning the wheel at the lighthouse, one of the pictures that Jack saw looked like the Temple where Jin and Sun were married. The next picture looked like a church, but I did not recognize it. If Jacob was watching everyone with the lighthouse, that would mean he assigned Jack his number before he was touched. Jack said he grew up in that house and he hasn't lived for awhile.

                                                              The church could have been where Sawyer lived - when Jacob touched him he was sitting on the church steps at his parents' funeral. Jack's and Sayid's names stand out from the other names - they are written bolder and darker. If all the slots have a name and most of the names are crossed out, could there be other lighthouses with the names of failed candidates?

                                                              This whole lighthouse thing reminds me of the holographic theory. By setting the mirrors at different angles (different numbers on the dial), the life of the person whose number it's on is revealed or unfolded. As Hurley pulled the chain and the indicator moved past each number, the image in the mirror changed to reveal something relevant to each person's life. It is all there to be revealed but must be viewed at the correct angle.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #12.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:11 AM EST
                                                              pinkcap

                                                              Say What?? ... you always have insightful observations. I do believe that you're right about it being the church where Jacob first touched Sawyer. The temple is also the setting for the first time Jacob touched Jin and Sun.

                                                              It is interesting that they show Jack's home and not the hospital where we saw Jacob touch Jack. Could that mean that Jacob had touched Jack at an earlier period in time? OMG - I just had a thought. In another post, I questioned how Jack could have his appendix removed at age 7 in this world, but he didn't have it removed until he was on the island in the other world. I was basing this on Jack being touched by Jacob for the first time in the hospital. FLocke said that Jacob probably touched everyone when they were young and vulnerable. Maybe in the original world, Jack was suffering from an inflamed appendix. I think this would be considered a vulnerable state. Jacob visits him at his home and heals him. He does not have the appendectomy at age 7, but it returns when he's on the island and he has it removed by Juliet? If Jacob touched Jack twice, then he probably touched everyone at a young age and touched them again when they were an adult.

                                                              This would fit with the Holographic theory you were describing. We were seeing the mirrors angled to show the first meeting Jacob had with everyone. If the angles were changed, we would see another point in their lives. Say What?? - you're a genius.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #12.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:47 AM EST
                                                              FortifiedHooligan

                                                              How old would Jack be in 1977? If the change in everyones' life happened when the bomb went off then wouldn't it be possible that is why in the new timeline he had it out as a child? Same idea as Locke and his dad not being estranged and Jack having a kid and Hurley being positive?

                                                                #12.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:00 AM EST
                                                                say what??

                                                                pinkcap, in this episode we saw Jack drive up to his mother's house in LA X world and as far as I can recall, this is the first time we have seen the house. It was the same view of the house Jack saw in the lighthouse mirror, so maybe the lighthouse is the connection between the island world and the flash sideways world and Jack was seeing the past - not his childhood past but his flash sideways past 3 years ago (this would also work holographically because every moment of the past is accessible in the holographic world). The sequence of events in the episode shows Jack perplexed about his appendectomy scar first and at the lighthouse later, but what if Jack looking in the mirror at his scar happened at the same time Jack saw the house in the lighthouse mirror and the cross-timeline connection was made, causing LA X Jack to wonder about his scar and island Jack to see his childhood home? Through the looking glass.

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #12.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:05 AM EST
                                                                JohnBoy813

                                                                Perhaps Jacob posed as an orderly when Jack was 7 and touched him on the way to surgery. And when he touched him again in the hospital when he handed him to candy bar he put the appendix back so that Juliette could operate on him on the island :)

                                                                  #12.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:30 PM EST
                                                                  minklady

                                                                  What I found interesting is that in the lighthouse, Jack's comment to Hurley was that he hadn't been to that house since he was a kid. But in the LA X timeline, his Mother still lives there, and Jack seems to be right at home. Why would he leave when he was a kid, unless his parents divorced and he went to live with his Father, in Australia possibly? But why over the years didn't he go back to see his Mother?

                                                                    #12.6 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:45 PM EST
                                                                    say what??

                                                                    First Jack says it's the house he grew up in, then he says " I haven't lived in that house since I was a kid." That probably means he lived there through high school, then left to go to college and med school.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #12.7 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:55 PM EST
                                                                    Superman2001

                                                                    Right. In fact, when his dad leaves to Sydney, his mom tells him that he needs to go bring him back, and they're at this house when she tells him that.

                                                                      #12.8 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:26 PM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      Lostie Girl
                                                                    • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?
                                                                    • Again, just a clue that the flash-sideways Losties "know" deep down that something isn't quite right.

                                                                    • Who is David's mother?
                                                                    • Watching the show, I assumed it was his ex-wife Sarah. But I am trying to remember if she had those brilliant blue eyes. I am hoping that it will turn out to be another Lostie that will appear to us later in the season.

                                                                    • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?
                                                                    • I agree with an earlier post that it was to make us believe he had reincarnated, but then do a fake out. Also might be that his symbol is water. Maybe the reason the waters were murkier after he died was because the water is his spirit, which would be tainted with blood.

                                                                    • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?
                                                                    • I am really hoping it is Desmond, but I agree that if Ben was following Nemesis, so it very well could be Widmore. Who knows, maybe due to the parallel time line it will bring them both back together.

                                                                    • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?
                                                                    • I think the writers anticipated us questioning this, so they made light of the newly created structure on the island by having the Llosties reference it.

                                                                    • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?
                                                                    • Yes, but not directly. I agree with Rebecca that its destruction would cause a boat to crash on the island. Or maybe, the "asset" that is coming is the future, self-realized Jack.

                                                                    • What does Jacob need Jack to do?
                                                                    • I think Jack will have to sacrifice himself somehow through an act of faith to replace Jacob and restore the balance on the island.

                                                                    • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?
                                                                    • I think that Claire was "infected" long before the explosion, but much like Sayid it took a little while for her to start to show her "symptoms". This is why she so willingly went with Christian, because she was already so far gone with the infection. I am trying to figure out if the immunization shots she received while pregnant have any effect on her situation. I also wonder how long it will take for Sayid to begin to act differently?

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#13 - Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:40 PM EST
                                                                      minklady

                                                                      I am immediately struck by the architectural qualities of the lighthouse, it looks like a masonic temple. The free masons were a society established hundreds of year ago, that believed in a supreme being. What is interesting is that they have a ritual of choosing “candidates” for their lodges. I looked it up, and in addition to having to believe in a supreme being (of your own choosing and of any faith), they have to be a man who comes in of his own free will. They also follow Cristian theology, especially a man Jacob Boehme; he believed that all of humanity needs to undergo conflict and learn about good and evil. I don’t quite know where I am going with this, I need to think about it more. But not tonight, I have to get up early tomorrow. I could be WAY off base too.

                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      Reply#14 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:00 AM EST
                                                                      Herbcules74

                                                                      Just a quick note since everyone is talking about it. To me the name on the compass at 108 looked like it was Wallace. I too assumed it would be Desmond.

                                                                        Reply#15 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:01 AM EST
                                                                        boonesfarm

                                                                        Okay... this is a major reach. I googled "Lost" & "Wallace" and found a Wikipedia profile for a Lew Wallace, who was a Union General in the Civil War. In the profile they talk about a battle at Ft. Donalson, where Wallace "led a counter attack which retook the ground that was lost". Assuming the opposition takes control of the temple, Wallace could be Jacob's key in getting it back.

                                                                        Again, I realize the Civil War angle is a little extreme... but I guess anything can be in play when it comes to this show, right? ; )

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #15.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:39 AM EST
                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                        Additionally, Lew Wallace also wrote Ben Hur and was the Governor of New Mexico. He made a deal with Billy the Kid then reneged on it, igniting the Lincoln County War. I may be a little short on Physics knowledge, but I do love my Western History.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #15.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:59 AM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        minklady

                                                                        I just love how the writers brought back the Alice in Wonderland theme for Jack: The Annotated Alice (that he used to read to his son AND note that he mentioned Kitty and Snowdrop who are the black and white kitties), the “can’t we just get through it” stated by David (the mirror), “hope you find what you’re looking for” Kate to Jack, the key holder at Jack’s x-wife’s home in the shape of a rabbit, and the looking glass (mirror in the lighthouse) into his life. It must have been season 1 when Jack was seeing his father in the jungle and Locke made a comment about following the white rabbit.

                                                                        • 16 votes
                                                                        Reply#16 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:05 AM EST
                                                                        dcotts42

                                                                        Isn't ironic how most of the TV commercials during Lost were for Johnny Depp in Alice in wonderland soon in theaters.

                                                                          #16.1 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:17 AM EST
                                                                          Debra Murphy

                                                                          Very nice catch, minklady. I, too, adore all the literary references, but ALICE is one I'm not terribly familiar with.

                                                                            #16.2 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:17 AM EST
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            ranturn

                                                                            It is interesting that tonight's episode had several references to Alice in Wonderland and references to Charlie as well. There was a white rabbit and Jack's son was reading The Annotated Alice which is a work by Martin Gardner which incorporates the text of Lewis Carroll's major tales: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass.

                                                                            Wasn't the episode where Charlie died entitled "The Looking Glass" or something similar? And the other reference to Charlie was the poster for Meat Coat (see post #5). I wonder if we will be seeing Charlie again.


                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            Reply#17 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:18 AM EST
                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                            Hey ranturn,

                                                                            Yes, Charlie died in the season 3 episode "Through the Looking Glass." The Dharma station he died in was called the Looking Glass station and represented by a rabbit.

                                                                            I just rewatched that episode this past weekend. It was interesting to rewatch it knowing what we know now. I've developed new ideas ... that is scary LOL!

                                                                              #17.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:26 AM EST
                                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                                              Wasn't the episode where Charlie died entitled "The Looking Glass" or something similar? And the other reference to Charlie was the poster for Meat Coat (see post #5). I wonder if we will be seeing Charlie again.

                                                                              Yes, Season 3 finale was: Through the Looking Glass, just like Carroll's book. And, Yes, I'm expecting to see Charlie at some point.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #17.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:28 AM EST
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                                              What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?

                                                                              Putting in the pool chemicals....just can't get that nasty stain out or the ph balance to be just right!

                                                                                Reply#18 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:22 AM EST
                                                                                blackwidow1

                                                                                You are funny!

                                                                                However, my favorite theory so far for the night was posted by Lostie Girl:

                                                                                Maybe the reason the waters were murkier after he died was because the water is his spirit, which would be tainted with blood.

                                                                                Your pool chemical theory is my second favorite!

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #18.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:28 AM EST
                                                                                ranturn

                                                                                I like that! He needs to get the water ready for when Nemesis comes a calling to the temple! There will probably be a duel in that water!

                                                                                  #18.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:32 AM EST
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  Aqualeo

                                                                                  Cheers:

                                                                                  • Hurley, Hurley, Hurley. If it's not the Tic Tac Toe game then it's the Indiana Jones and the Obe Wan lines...just loved everything he did.
                                                                                  • Bad Ass Claire....i've always liked her and now she kicks ass but might be for the dark side. Her weapon of choice....the Axe of course

                                                                                  Jeers:

                                                                                  • Jack....no more needs to be said....

                                                                                  The Big Questions:

                                                                                  • Why doesn't Jack remember his appendectomy?
                                                                                  • it's from his island adventures
                                                                                  • Who is David's mother?
                                                                                  • I'll say the same woman Jack was married to but you never know
                                                                                  • What was Jacob doing in the Temple's water?
                                                                                  • Probably nothing
                                                                                  • Who does Jacob want to bring to the Island?
                                                                                  • I can only think of the Flashsideway Losties
                                                                                  • Why didn't anyone notice the lighthouse before?
                                                                                  • You never notice something until you need it.
                                                                                  • Did Jacob ever intend to use the lighthouse to bring in his asset?
                                                                                  • No
                                                                                  • What does Jacob need Jack to do?
                                                                                  • no clue. we will hve to wait for the next horrible jack episode
                                                                                  • How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?
                                                                                  • Probably as long as Jacob has been influencing the candidates
                                                                                    Reply#19 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:25 AM EST
                                                                                    blackwidow1

                                                                                    My favorite Hurley line of the night was when said to Jacob:

                                                                                    "I just lied to a samuri"

                                                                                    BTW - The guy who plays Dogen was in the movie "The Last Samuri" with Tom Cruise.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    Reply#20 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:30 AM EST
                                                                                    BlackRock Steve

                                                                                    Mine too; my wife and I just about fell out of our chairs laughing at that one. Loved it. Think of the fun these folks have writing this thing!!!

                                                                                      #20.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:34 AM EST
                                                                                      BlackRock Steve

                                                                                      bw1....speaking of Dogen, please see my last comment/question in 2.5 above about the costume they have him always wearing!?

                                                                                        #20.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 AM EST
                                                                                        blackwidow1

                                                                                        steve ... I responded to the Dogen comment back up there in 2.5

                                                                                          #20.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:25 AM EST
                                                                                          NCL70506

                                                                                          "I just lied to a samurai"

                                                                                          While I see the humor in this statement, I did not understand what Hurley meant by this. How exactly did he lie to Dogen? We know Hurley is a candidate, but does he realize that he is one?

                                                                                            #20.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:37 AM EST
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                                            I have to say, I'm in the minority here tonight. I really didn't find this episode very informative or very exciting. But after reading all of your posts so far, I've gotten all twitterpated and will probably typically lose my Tuesday night sleep and get nothing accomplished at work tomorrow!

                                                                                            So thank you all! I know I can always count on you.

                                                                                            The past few weeks, several people have made comments about the alternate or sideways timeline and how so many things are so different and questioning how that can be.

                                                                                            Maybe I have it all wrong and if I do, please let me know, but I'm under the impression that everything for all of our Oceanic 815 friends has been changed since the 1977 explosion of the bomb not just that its changed since the initial 2004 flight.

                                                                                            In other words, we are not seeing what could have happened if the plane didn't crash on the island in 2004. We are seeing what would have happened if the Island was removed from play in 1977. This would be why Jack can have an adolescent son. And John can have had a different relationship with his father than the one we were told about.

                                                                                            Like I said, I could be reading this completely different that what the writers intended. But this is how I'm seeing things. Please, give me your thoughts because I'd hate to be confused four episodes down the road (LOL ... as if that's not going to be a possibility!)

                                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                                            #21 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:52 AM EST
                                                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                                                            YES, I too have seen many negative posts about the "sideways flash" and thought I was the only one digging it!? Sideways to me meant sideways from 1977 and they never crashed on the island as the annotated episodes keep reiterating. However, note that you are also seeing the 'cues' that Steve and I referenced above that Jack (and I believe other losties) have a 'connection' to their selves on the island. For me, the sideways flash is an "altered states" thing....note that they display behavior that reflects the experiences (as in Charlie's hateful look and comment to Jack when leaving the plane) &/or learning on the island....and remember: everything that rises must converge!

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #21.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:08 AM EST
                                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                                            Yes!!!

                                                                                            I like the way pinkcap phrased it:

                                                                                            It's as if they took Jack from the original world, wiped his memories, replaced him with new memories, and dropped him into this world.

                                                                                            Kind of Matrix-y if you ask me!

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #21.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:34 AM EST
                                                                                            pinkcap

                                                                                            I too believe that everything in the sideways world is caused by events that have happened beginning in 1977. Things are different because as of 1977, there has been no reason for Jacob to lead them to the island if the island is already destroyed. I was thinking that the two worlds would play out side by side and eventually we would see that the characters come to the same end in both worlds. I base this on the course correction that we have seen throughout this series - we were told by Eloise Hawkings that the universe has a way of correcting itself.

                                                                                            After last night's episode, I have to re-think some things. It really bothered me that Jack had no memory of his appendectomy. His mother says he had the procedure when he was 7 and we've seen Juliet do it in the other world on the island when he was an adult. You have to question if Jacob's touch could have delayed Jack's appendectomy by at least 25 years. I had my tonsils out at 5 and I remember that. A surgery is a major event. The only way to not remember it is if you were always in and out of hospitals for many different procedures and the appendectomy was just one in a series of operations. When I first saw the deja-vu vibe the characters seem to have in the sideways world, I thought it was either because they were destined to have a connection to each other or the producers just put it in there to make us question this world. Now I have to wonder if it's more than that and I just can't put my finger on it yet.

                                                                                            I'm also thinking about the numbers, the Valenzetti equation, and Jacob's statement that it "only ends once, everything else is progress." In the Valenzetti equation, 4,8, 15,16, 23,42 is the code to predicting doomsday. When Jacob talked about the end, was he talking about his battle with the nemesis on the island ending or was he talking about doomsday? If he's talking about doomsday, is he trying to stop it, or is he the one bringing them to the island to finally bring about doomsday?

                                                                                            Please, give me your thoughts because I'd hate to be confused four episodes down the road (LOL ... as if that's not going to be a possibility!) .... Black Widow - I'm already there!

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #21.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:14 AM EST
                                                                                            Herbcules74

                                                                                            You are 100% correct in your thinking Blackwidow. The "sideways" flashes that we are seeing are how the world would be from 1977 on if the island was at the bottom of the ocean. I think Anjilliana previously referenced the Dark Tower series by Stephen King. That series dealt with multiple realities, or multiple worlds. In it the "tower" was the only thing that exisited in all worlds, but you couldn't access it from all worlds. Sort of like the Island being on the bottom of the ocean and inaccessible in this reality. Interestingly enough in that series if the tower fell it would cause everything to cease to exist. It was described as the "lynch-pin" connecting all worlds. That kind of reminds me of the Island. If you love Lost I would highly recommend this series. I reread it every few years because I like it so much,

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #21.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:19 AM EST
                                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                                            Thanks guys ... I thought I was correct in my thinking but I just kept seeing posts about how "this couldn't happen" and "that couldn't happen" so I thought maybe I missed something. I knew y'all could clear it up for me.

                                                                                            I started the Dark Tower series way back in high school when it was first published but never got around to reading beyond "The Gunslinger" ... A few years ago a started picking up the rest of the series at Half-Priced Books but between life and Lost there's hasn't been too much time to read. I'll definitely put this series on my "to read" list.

                                                                                            Have you read King's collaboration with Peter Straub "The Talisman"? It too was about alternate realities.

                                                                                              #21.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:40 AM EST
                                                                                              Herbcules74

                                                                                              Widow...

                                                                                              I've read everything by King. He also collaborated with Straub on Black House, which is a sequal to The Talisman. Oddly enough both of these stories are also related to the Dark Tower Series. Along with his book Insomnia and several short stories. He had his own "easter eggs" hidden throughout a lot of his books that tie into the Dark Tower.

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #21.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM EST
                                                                                              Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                              Good catch blackwidow1,

                                                                                              This whole "flash sideways" thing is akin to Desmond waking up in the middle of the night and suddenly remembering that Dan Farraday pleaded with him to contact Eloise Hawking in order to save those left behind on the time skipping island after Ben moved it.

                                                                                              In other words, when you mess with the time line all bets are off in regards to past and future events.

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #21.7 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:44 PM EST
                                                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                                                              Pinkcap...

                                                                                              When Jacob talked about the end, was he talking about his battle with the nemesis on the island ending or was he talking about doomsday? If he's talking about doomsday, is he trying to stop it, or is he the one bringing them to the island to finally bring about doomsday?

                                                                                              THESE are the questions....I've felt that they were the 2 "master" players of the game discussing the game, and MIB was not talking about his attitude about mankind, but rather lamenting that his "players" were only doing what Jacob wanted/needed to "win"...as in: "...I'm so disappointed in all of you!!"

                                                                                              Sabastian....

                                                                                              In other words, when you mess with the time line all bets are off in regards to past and future events.

                                                                                              Actually, I think the more accurate view is that time is not linear; the real "variable" is man and his free choice!

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #21.8 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:21 PM EST
                                                                                              Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                              Actually, I think the more accurate view is that time is not linear; the real "variable" is man and his free choice!

                                                                                              or the answer is "C" Both.

                                                                                              Time is linear and we (Mankind) are "variables" because of our free will and ability to choose. Indeed, it is a paradox, contradictory and nonetheless true. (see comment 64.0)

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #21.9 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:44 PM EST
                                                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                                                              Time is linear and we (Mankind) are "variables" because of our free will and ability to choose. Indeed, it is a paradox, contradictory and nonetheless true. (see comment 64.0)

                                                                                              Actually, I had already read your #64 post. Like it, my friend, but with all due respect to Roberta Sparrow I still prefer the philosophical application of the "men of science" Eienstein and quantum physics to explain time, and why the time line lable is a misnomer!

                                                                                                #21.10 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:57 PM EST
                                                                                                Debra Murphy

                                                                                                Oh yes, they're surely (among other things) doing a Butterfly Effect thing. Somehow the 1977 blast changed things from that point on, having far reaching effects on the lives of so many people who at that time would have had no awareness of their connection to the Island.

                                                                                                But here's a question I should have added to my list in my earlier post...Is the Island sunk because of Jughead directly or something else? Has anyone seen a teaser somewhere showing two people coming ashore in a dingy near the 4-Toed statue with a gigantic volcano behind about to erupt? (My 12-yr-old says he saw this, but I haven't seen it anywhere.) Could Jughead somehow messed with a volcano?

                                                                                                  #21.11 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:26 AM EST
                                                                                                  Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                  "Actually, I had already read your #64 post. Like it, my friend, but with all due respect to Roberta Sparrow I still prefer the philosophical application of the "men of science" Eienstein and quantum physics to explain time, and why the time line lable is a misnomer!"

                                                                                                  Fair enough. So do you disagree with physicist Professor Stephen Hawking's metaphorical device of the "Chronology Protection Agency"?

                                                                                                  It seems that there is a Chronology Protection Agency which prevents the appearance of closed timelike curves and so makes the universe safe for historians.

                                                                                                  With all due respect to Roberta Sparrow, I think that Hawking may be on to something. Actually both "Hawkings" may be right. Destiny has a way of "course correcting".

                                                                                                  In "Adrift", Jack climbs down The Hatch ladder to look for John and Kate. He finds John being held at gun point by a crazy eyed Desmond...

                                                                                                  JACK: Where's Kate? What the hell did you...

                                                                                                  DESMOND: [still behind a wall holding a gun to Locke's head] Move and I kill him. Put the gun down.

                                                                                                  JACK: Where's Kate?

                                                                                                  LOCKE: Jack, it's okay.

                                                                                                  DESMOND: I said drop it.

                                                                                                  JACK: Where's Kate?

                                                                                                  LOCKE: She's fine. Just put down the...

                                                                                                  JACK: I'm not putting down anything.

                                                                                                  [Desmond fires his gun which hits near where Kate is, in the vent.]

                                                                                                  DESMOND: Do you want him to die? Put it down.

                                                                                                  JACK: Is this what you were talking about Locke? Is this your destiny? All roads lead here?

                                                                                                  Yes, I do believe that they (all roads or time lines) do (lead to a specific destiny). I also think that's were this "flash sideways" reality is going. What ever the season 6 finale ends up being I think that both time-lines will lead there.

                                                                                                  Ladies and gentlemen, please place your bets....

                                                                                                    #21.12 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:04 PM EST
                                                                                                    blackwidow1

                                                                                                    Sebastian and Blackrock Steve,

                                                                                                    The back and forth between the two of you never fails to entertain me.

                                                                                                    Actually, I believe Ms. Hawking said the the "universe" has a way of course correcting not destiny or fate.

                                                                                                    Which leads me to ask the both of you (because I respect both of your opinions), do you think there is a difference between fate and destiny?

                                                                                                    To me, I've always considered fate as what happens. Its a particular point or place or position that a person finds themself at or in. Destiny, on the other hand, is a higher purpose or the meaning we've attached to where one ends up. If that makes sense. Fate is just a fact. Destiny is meaning.

                                                                                                    Also, Sebastian, are you saying that despite what one does ... despite the variables/ choices/decisions/free will .... the end result will be the same? If all roads lead to the same place then it really doesn't matter what road is chosen?

                                                                                                    Isn't this a deterministic argument?

                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                    #21.13 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:33 AM EST
                                                                                                    Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                    blackwidow1,

                                                                                                    You are right about Eloise Hawking. I've quoted her incorrectly. I do believe that she said that the universe has a way of course correcting. Isn't the end result still the same?

                                                                                                    Also, Sebastian, are you saying that despite what one does ... despite the variables/ choices/decisions/free will .... the end result will be the same? If all roads lead to the same place then it really doesn't matter what road is chosen?

                                                                                                    I'll let professor Hawking answer that...

                                                                                                    "...The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate..." (A Brief History Of Time)

                                                                                                    This debate reminds me of The Matrix Reloaded and a conversation between The Oracle and Neo....

                                                                                                    ORACLE: Candy?

                                                                                                    NEO: Do you already know if I'm going to take it?

                                                                                                    ORACLE: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

                                                                                                    NEO: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

                                                                                                    ORACLE: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to understand why you made it. I thought you'd've figured that out by now.

                                                                                                    Huh? What? I get Neo's confusion. I don't get The Oracles response. I'm guessing that to someone who sees the future, everything seems "past tense"?

                                                                                                    Yes, this is a deterministic argument. It's an interesting idea to ponder; free will, predestination or both?

                                                                                                    I started a discussion last year (here on Newsvine) regarding an interview from Professor David Sosa (The University Of Texas at Austin, Department of Philosophy, Professor and Chair PhD, Princeton). Check it out.

                                                                                                      #21.14 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                                                                                                      Superman2001

                                                                                                      This debate reminds me of The Matrix Reloaded and a conversation between The Oracle and Neo....

                                                                                                      ORACLE: Candy?

                                                                                                      NEO: Do you already know if I'm going to take it?

                                                                                                      ORACLE: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

                                                                                                      NEO: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

                                                                                                      ORACLE: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to understand why you made it. I thought you'd've figured that out by now.

                                                                                                      Huh? What? I get Neo's confusion. I don't get The Oracles response. I'm guessing that to someone who sees the future, everything seems "past tense"?

                                                                                                      That came on the other day, and watching that part, I thought of LOST also. My understanding of what the Oracle said is twofold:

                                                                                                      1) She's saying that the choice isn't what's important, it's what leads up to the choice, how he makes/made it, and what that means to his role as The One.

                                                                                                      2) Considering the fact that she lied to him in the first movie and told him that he was NOT The One, manipulating him so that he would save Morpheus and realize on his own who and what he was, I figure that I can't take everything she says at face value. So my interpretation of "you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it" is that she wants him to focus on what the choice means, not what the choice is.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #21.15 - Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:15 PM EST
                                                                                                      BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                      do you think there is a difference between fate and destiny? To me, I've always considered fate as what happens. Its a particular point or place or position that a person finds themself at or in. Destiny, on the other hand, is a higher purpose or the meaning we've attached to where one ends up...Fate is just a fact. Destiny is meaning....

                                                                                                      blackwidow1….welcome to what I think is one of the major, if not their secondary objective with their plot, hidden themes/questions to C&L’s Lost…what is the true nature (or meaning) of man/life…and their answer…modern existential philosophy!! Although I generally agree with your comments, fate is usually associated with determinism and destiny with free choice.

                                                                                                      A very simple overview: Determinism is the belief that your fate is predetermined and controlled by external forces, as in “your lot in life”, and man must just accept it and can do little or nothing to change it. One can even argue that extreme religious systems are deterministic, as in “the devil made me do it” or the more common that God is all controlling and punishing and determines your fate…as in caused the earthquake in Haiti. The opposite of determinism is belief in Free Will…and that you can effect and control your own destiny. Existentialism maintains that not only are individuals always free to make choices and guide their lives towards their own chosen goal or "project"…their destiny, but your basic freedom of choice and responsibility is inescapable. Circumstances & external forces may limit you and regardless of whether you adopt an objective moral system or not, the individual is solely responsible for giving his own life meaning and living that life passionately. We are, in fact, “doomed” to this eternal freedom, and as a human, one cannot claim our actions are determined by forces exterior to the self. Namaste! BRS

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #21.16 - Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:38 AM EST
                                                                                                      Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                      "...A very simple overview: Determinism is the belief that your fate is predetermined and controlled by external forces, as in “your lot in life”, and man must just accept it and can do little or nothing to change it. One can even argue that extreme religious systems are deterministic, as in “the devil made me do it” or the more common that God is all controlling and punishing and determines your fate…as in caused the earthquake in Haiti..."

                                                                                                      I'd like to argue that even if you took extreme religious systems out of the equation that we would still have to seriously question whether or not we have free will. Me, personally, I believe that we do however I also know that....

                                                                                                      "...the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. Now, these laws, because they're so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules. We're mostly water, and our behavior isn't gonna be an exception to these basic physical laws." - Professor David Sosa

                                                                                                      BRS, I believe that the argument is valid that some allow external forces (religion, society etc.) to dictate how one should live their lives thus refusing to take responsibility for their actions however I also believe while I must take ownership of my life and choices that it is very unlikely (from a scientific perspective) that I have complete control over my ultimate destiny.

                                                                                                      Simply put, this paradox comes from a conscious, intelligent mind with free choice of the will existing in a mechanical, deterministic, blindly driven by efficient cause material body/world /universe.

                                                                                                      I think that C&L's modern day myth "Lost" explores this idea more so than "picking a side". I'm hoping that at the end "mind" and free choice (represented by Jacob) finds balance with the mechanical and deterministic Nemesis (FLocke). I'm not even sure that one could exist without the other.

                                                                                                        #21.17 - Mon Mar 1, 2010 12:45 PM EST
                                                                                                        BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                        Hi Sabastian,

                                                                                                        Actually, I couldn't agree more with much of what you say...please note that I did not say that we have "complete" control over our own destiny, merely the free will to make choices and control what we can to gain the desired outcome. The key, via exercising free will, is to recognize the paradox and control what we can while 'letting go' of what we can't....as in maintain balance. Namaste!

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #21.18 - Mon Mar 1, 2010 12:59 PM EST
                                                                                                        blackwidow1

                                                                                                        Simply put, this paradox comes from a conscious, intelligent mind with free choice of the will existing in a mechanical, deterministic, blindly driven by efficient cause material body/world /universe.

                                                                                                        I completely agree with this. But I don't understand why its a paradox to begin with. Maybe that's the part I'm missing in this entire debate. I'd love to understand.

                                                                                                        With regard to Lost, I do not necessarily agree with Jacob representing choice and MIB being strictly deterministic. I'd love to share theories but for the life of me I can't seem to get 5 minutes to myself in the past three days!

                                                                                                          #21.19 - Mon Mar 1, 2010 5:01 PM EST
                                                                                                          Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                          It's a paradox because the statement "I'm in control of my own life" and the statement "the universe is deterministic" appear to be contradictory. How can they both be true?

                                                                                                            #21.20 - Mon Mar 1, 2010 6:50 PM EST
                                                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                                                            If determinism is viewed as an “end game” type of situation then it really only matters that a specific event occurs at a specific time. So say, for example, the universe has determined that I’m going to die at the age of 95. Then I have the opportunity, the free will, to fill the time until I’m 95 with anything I want. If I want to spend my life building bridges, then I can. If I want to spend my life climbing mountains, I can do that too. Its my time to do with as I choose and try to cram as much meaning (or lack thereof) that I can fit into the finite number of days I’ve been given.

                                                                                                            Looking at this dichotomy from the above perspective, its somewhat like Lost presented during season 3 with the death of Charlie. Desmond had foreseen Charlie's death and successfully prevented it several times. In the end, Charlie did die. So determinism, or rather the deterministic universe was proven true. Charlie was supposed to die and he did. However, the freewill aspect of the equation can be seen in Desmond – the variable - who prevented Charlie's death numerous times before it actually occurred (the lightning strike at the tent, Rousseau's trap, etc.) In the end, Charlie's acceptance of his fate (death) gave him the courage to meet his fate head on and dictate it on his own terms. He chose to die at this time. Additionally, he gave it meaning (destiny) by believing that his death was for a higher purpose (to save Claire, Aaron and his fellow castaways) rather than just simply having it mean nothing (just the end of a life). So, the free-will argument is also true.

                                                                                                            And that is how I think that the paradox can be reconciled. It can be both. At the same time. So I guess I’d be considered a compatibilist.

                                                                                                            Personally, I think that there is not too much truth in any dichotomy. I think that the real truth to almost any situation is found somewhere in the middle of two extremes. If nothing else, all of life attempts to maintain an equilibrium or stasis. (Whoo-hoo! I have a scientific basis to my thoughts, that’s groovy.) I’m not much of a right/wrong, good/bad, etc. kind of person. Labeling, much less labeling in such a binary way, tends to limit and stifle any type of intellectual and emotional growth (just my opinion for what its worth).

                                                                                                            That all being said, I think Lost has also offered up the idea of eternal return – a kind of “Groundhog Day” type of storyline where the universe repeats itself over and over again (and quite frankly I don’t think things can get more deterministic than this concept). I get this idea mainly from the character of Eloise Hawking and her role as a temporal guide. She has spent much of her time telling people what they are supposed to do (their destiny) with regard to the island. She sent Desmond to the island. She convinced most of the Oceanic 6 to return to the island, She’s foreshadowed the doom that is imminent if her directives aren’t followed with her pronouncements of “God help us all.” In addition, at some point (I think it was during the episode where she talked Desmond out of buying the engagement ring for Penny) she had on a pin in the shape of an ouroboros, a symbol of eternal return. I never saw her so much as having seen the future, but of having relived the future (although I have nothing to base that on other than a hunch). I think what clinched this idea of eternal return was when she said something along the lines of “this is the first time I don’t know what’s going to happen next.”

                                                                                                            This weekend I caught the end of Stephen King’s “The Stand.” While this has always been one of my favorite stories to read (gads the acting in the mini-series is atrocious), I found myself thinking how happy I am that Lost hasn’t been so black and white in their presentation of good and evil. And I think, Sebastian, that your assessment is correct that:

                                                                                                            I think that C&L's modern day myth "Lost" explores this idea more so than "picking a side". I'm hoping that at the end "mind" and free choice (represented by Jacob) finds balance with the mechanical and deterministic Nemesis (FLocke). I'm not even sure that one could exist without the other.

                                                                                                            Both sides do need each other to coexist. Its who represents the light and dark where we disagree.

                                                                                                            Also this weekend I stumbled upon (actually woke up to the tv on and thought OMG this is relevant to Lost!) a move called “Primer,” which deals with two men (Aaron and Abe) who discover a way to travel through time and the eventual breakdown of their friendship that occurs because of their differing views on the use of this discovery. While I don’t think there was anything new or profound for those of us Lost viewers that have discussed/debated theories of time travel since last season, there were many similarities to Lost. And I read an interview that the writer/director gave to a magazine about the movie and there was one statement he made that really stood out:

                                                                                                            “The universe is not going to explode or break down if you create a paradox. Whatever's going to break is probably going to be you.”

                                                                                                            I found it an interesting thought, to say the least.

                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                            #21.21 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 12:31 AM EST
                                                                                                            Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                            "And that is how I think that the paradox can be reconciled. It can be both. At the same time. So I guess I’d be considered a compatibilist."

                                                                                                            Impressive. I been reading Hermetic literature lately and one of the seven Hermetic principles is The Principle of Polarity.....

                                                                                                            "Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its
                                                                                                            pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are
                                                                                                            identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet;
                                                                                                            all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be
                                                                                                            reconciled."--The Kybalion.

                                                                                                            So it would seem that you and I are not alone in our belief that all extreme opposites may be reconciled. Hot and cold, black and white, Good and evil are but 2 sides of the same coin. Not opposites but a matter of degrees.

                                                                                                            "...Both sides do need each other to coexist. Its who represents the light and dark where we disagree."

                                                                                                            I actually don't think that we disagree that much in this regards. What if JJ Cuseloff and crew are telling the story of 2 families from since the beginning of human civilization until today; The Locke family and The Shephard family? Maybe since the beginning of time men of desitiny (one from each family) have held the title of Island Leader and The Monster. Maybe after a certain amount of time each Island Leader is replaced by a member of the opposite family?

                                                                                                            I think that while Jacob was alive he was the "good guy" however I also think that once he died he became part of The Monster (just like everyone who has died). So the guy who has given Sawyer, Kate, Sun, Jin, Hurley, Sayid and Jack a little push to complete their destinies (Jacob) has died and his old purpose now goes to FLocke?

                                                                                                            The Monster was was the "bad guy" until he took over the persona of FLocke and I think that we'll either observe him becoming the "good guy" throughout the season or Jack will finally step up and be the new Jacob. I going with FLocke. I think that Jack will die before it's all said and done and become the new face of The Monster. And the cycle continues.....

                                                                                                              #21.22 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 12:45 PM EST
                                                                                                              blackwidow1

                                                                                                              Interesting theory as to where this is heading.

                                                                                                              Some food for thought - if you take the two poles and bring them together, forming a circle (ie. continuing the cycle) then the opposites become one - the one coin with two sides. When we remove linear thinking then the monster and the leader are one in the same.

                                                                                                              Along the same train of thought, you've mentioned yin and yang several times in posts throughout the season so far and I think you're onto something with the push-pull of yin and yang creating a balance - they are each half of the whole. And, looking further into the analogy, each "side" of yin and yang - the dark side and the light side - each of them contains within itself a small circle of the opposite color. So, inside the darkness is a spot of lightness - inside the lightness is a spot of darkness. And together they form a mutual whole.

                                                                                                                #21.23 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 2:42 PM EST
                                                                                                                BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                                Namaste, my Friends!! Wow, look at the fantastic discussions I am missing by no time to spend on-line or send emails....I am these days as you referenced bw1...not enough hours unfortunately in the day; no time to finish my "BlackRock article" that I so wanted to post... love to converse, but must run.

                                                                                                                I would say in regards to all of the above...that THISis what I believe C&L Lost's true story-arc is all about! It is a rewrite in modern terms of the oldest question and story of all, from 3000BC and the Greeks and prior with the Egyptians...the DUAL nature of Man and the the eternal conflict it causes...mans struggle to coexist with it via his free will and choices.

                                                                                                                As to the show, of most interest to me is that no one has posted re. the implications in the plot that there is yet another potential reveal...that of a "third party", an impartial observer, an arbiter or overseer to it all. Everyone just assumes that Jacob is the good and the user of the Lighthouse, etc....no one even noticed or discussed the telescopein the lighthouse that Jack used to smash the mirrors...as in "someone was watching"...Not just the mirrors to their past or off-island lives, but using the tower and the telescope to watch all the 'players in the game' below on the island!? Most important....WHO is Dogen, the "Temple Master", and likewise...it is a "temple" to WHOM? Do not just assume Jacob...or is it? Note Jacob's "smugness" and one must ask: is it derived from the self confidence and righteousness of "the good" or is it from sinister intent!?

                                                                                                                Sabastian: My "bet" is still on re. Jacob...until I see more evidence revealed...a caution: THE most used plot device for all these seasons in Lost always been: All is not what (or who) it is first revealed to be!

                                                                                                                Wish we could all sit in a conference room and watch this season together on a big screen...what fun that would be! ENJOY TONIGHT'S SHOW! Peace, BRS

                                                                                                                  #21.24 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 4:25 PM EST
                                                                                                                  pinkcap

                                                                                                                  Sebastian, Black Widow, and Black Rock Steve

                                                                                                                  I have enjoyed the ongoing dialogue between the three of you. You each have made some great points. I think Black widow said it so succinctly:

                                                                                                                  To me, I've always considered fate as what happens. Its a particular point or place or position that a person finds themself at or in. Destiny, on the other hand, is a higher purpose or the meaning we've attached to where one ends up. If that makes sense. Fate is just a fact. Destiny is meaning.

                                                                                                                  I do believe that you're right with the yin/yang relationship of Jacob/MIB, but I'm not sure how to reconcile that role in their present state. If two halves are needed to make the whole, what happens when one half is gone? If Jacob is gone, who takes his half? Is the MIB aware that he needs another half to survive, or is he searching for a replacement? In Yin/Yang, one side is not good and the other is not evil, they are balanced, but it looks like the MIB is going down an evil path. Is it the lack of Jacob balancing him that is causing it?

                                                                                                                    #21.25 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 4:29 PM EST
                                                                                                                    blackwidow1

                                                                                                                    Oh goody!

                                                                                                                    Something to think about on the drive home from work!

                                                                                                                      #21.26 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 4:48 PM EST
                                                                                                                      say what??

                                                                                                                      no one even noticed or discussed the telescopein the lighthouse that Jack used to smash the mirrors...as in "someone was watching"...Not just the mirrors to their past or off-island lives, but using the tower and the telescope to watch all the 'players in the game' below on the island!?

                                                                                                                      BRS, I noticed the telescope and in one of my comments wondered if it had special powers like the lighthouse mirrors. But good ol' Jack smashed it with the mirrors. Dogen's necklace ornament looks like a miniature telescope.

                                                                                                                      http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dogen

                                                                                                                        #21.27 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 6:08 PM EST
                                                                                                                        scrambledeggs

                                                                                                                        Brilliant ideas, all of you! :)

                                                                                                                          #21.28 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 7:01 PM EST
                                                                                                                          blackwidow1

                                                                                                                          say what?? - nice catch on Dogen's necklace. It does look like a telescope. I wondered what it was after he touched it as soon as he opened the guitar case and saw the ankh.

                                                                                                                          pinkcap - I think there will need to be some sort of balance achieved again now that Jacob's dead. Jacob's been looking for a replacement (if we can believe what Flocke told Sawyer). Which I guess begs the question - Did Jacob know he was going to die? - I mean, why would he go through all the trouble to bring candidates to the island if the end for him wasn't near? I don't see MIB (in the image of Flocke) necessarily going down an evil path but to answer your question more generically, yes - until the balance is restored I think there will be a shift of power toward MIB.

                                                                                                                          BRS - you bring up several interesting points that I hope we all can remember to discuss later. The third party - that would certainly put a different spin on things now wouldn't it? I don't know if I'd consider Dogen as an "impartial observer" but maybe he is. Especially after say what??'s catch about his telescope amulet. At this point I don't think its Jacob's lighthouse nor his temple alone. Remember Smokey does have a room in the basement where he apparently hung out once in a while. And I am completely on board with the "all is not as it seems," but you already knew that.

                                                                                                                          As far as the bet? LOL ... can I choose not to choose? I'm not sure what the sides are here but I'll go on record as saying that MIB has been maligned and will prove to be the side of light.

                                                                                                                            #21.29 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 7:12 PM EST
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                                                                                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                                            How long has Nemesis been influencing Claire?

                                                                                                                            As implied by Dogen comments to Jack about Sayid...The "infection" thing can take a long time to take over, but he referenced Claire as proving that eventually it does. So, go back seasons ago to Claire being taken by Doc Ethan and the others and Ethan giving her shots....as in, What if she was infected prior to giving birth to Aaron?? Can the infection also effect the unborn, thus...what does this mean for Aaron, AND...could this be why the Others were having birth problems and mothers died....as in, the others were under the effect of Nemesis...and many were infected. They would be the ones who lived at the Dharmaville compound instead of at the Temple.

                                                                                                                            Or, is the whole child birth issue a classic form of radiation & EM poisoning now that we know that they set the bomb off in 1977 at the Swan....and thus the problem occurs from that point on.

                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                            Reply#22 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:34 AM EST
                                                                                                                            blackwidow1

                                                                                                                            What if Claire did get infected prior to giving birth and the infection did in some way infect Aaron (doubt it but you never know)? And he's OFF THE ISLAND! That would lead to some interesting possibilities now wouldn't it. Maybe he's the Wallace of 108 degrees ... I don't see how that's possible but this is Lost afterall, they'll find a way to make anything work.

                                                                                                                            I think if the bomb worked in 1977 and the island ends up at the bottom of the ocean there would definitely be some pregnancy issues! LOL!

                                                                                                                            You know, since everyone likes to throw out biblical references with regard to this show, here's one to ponder.

                                                                                                                            Way back in the Garden of Eden, Eve's punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge (and possibly even more important ... convincing Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge) ... anyway, Eve's punishment above and beyond being banished from the Garden was to have to experience the pain of childbirth. On our island that has been "Through the Looking Glass," women are punished by being unable to carry a pregnancy to term, by dying as they try to bring forth new life.

                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                            #22.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:54 AM EST
                                                                                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                                            Correct....the pregnacy/birth issue for me is as in new life, new living, is not allowed on the island of the Lost...the land of the Dead (hint, hint)!

                                                                                                                            I think if the bomb worked in 1977 and the island ends up at the bottom of the ocean....

                                                                                                                            The "sunken island" in the season premier was symbolic for me....hence why it was murky and "dreadful graphics"...it was to symbolize what MIGHT be the future of the island IF the altered states/sideways timeline were to continue and be "reality".

                                                                                                                              #22.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:09 AM EST
                                                                                                                              ME-again

                                                                                                                              I think Claire became infected when the people from the boat were attacking Otherton and the house that Claire was in imploded on her. I think she was killed at the time, giving Nemesis the opportunity to claim her.

                                                                                                                                #22.3 - Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:29 PM EST
                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                NCL70506

                                                                                                                                Just some thoughts and observations:

                                                                                                                                Very interesting when Claire is talking to Jin about his wound and how she will tend to it, she says the one thing that will kill you on this Island is INFECTION. Double meaning there with the literal infection of Jin’s wound and the Smoke Monster’s infection of some people, including Claire.

                                                                                                                                Speaking of Jin, I am worried about him based on the ending of this episode. He is injured and appears to be at the mercy of a changed Claire and Nemesis himself.

                                                                                                                                A possible showdown between Claire and Kate over Aaron. Kate can hold her own in a fight/battle, but she would be up against a new, vengeful, and skilled Claire.

                                                                                                                                Claire spoke briefly and quickly about her time in the Temple, saying she was tortured and branded but managed to escape. I hope we get more information on this and exactly how/when she was infected.

                                                                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                Reply#23 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:04 AM EST
                                                                                                                                Pfemm

                                                                                                                                Speaking of Jin, I am worried about him based on the ending of this episode. He is injured and appears to be at the mercy of a changed Claire and Nemesis himself.

                                                                                                                                Don't you worry none.... Sawyer will come to the rescue ;)

                                                                                                                                  #23.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                  lostie1650031

                                                                                                                                  First time posting, but wasn't the scar from the appendectomy Juliet did on Jack a few seasons ago? I don't really remember, but that was the first thought that came to mind.

                                                                                                                                    Reply#24 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:02 AM EST
                                                                                                                                    Logan 5

                                                                                                                                    This episode was pretty good because, in true LOST fashion, it doesn't seem to answer much until you analyze the crap out of it.

                                                                                                                                    The only new comments I could add to everyone's great answers and observations already are:

                                                                                                                                    1) Question 1: I took that scene to mean that Jack DID remember having his appendectomy...on an island he's never been to and performed by people he's never met. That's why he asked his mom about it and why he said he guesses he remembers.

                                                                                                                                    2) A big question for me is why did Jin lie to Claire about lying to Claire? Since he knew Kate raised Aaron, then why didn't he just explain the situation? He at least knew that she disappeared and Sawyer and Co. found Aaron in the jungle and brought him to the camp. What's so bad about that? And as someone above said, she didn't seem too upset about it when she was in the cabin with Christian and Locke.

                                                                                                                                    3) Related to that is why is he taking her to the Temple? My guess is so she'll help him get there (not goin' far on that leg) and then the Temple Others will take her out. I can't think of any other reason and, in her mental state, it just doesn't sound like a good idea.

                                                                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                    Reply#25 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:35 AM EST
                                                                                                                                    AshleyKeen

                                                                                                                                    2) A big question for me is why did Jin lie to Claire about lying to Claire? Since he knew Kate raised Aaron, then why didn't he just explain the situation? He at least knew that she disappeared and Sawyer and Co. found Aaron in the jungle and brought him to the camp. What's so bad about that? And as someone above said, she didn't seem too upset about it when she was in the cabin with Christian and Locke.

                                                                                                                                    I think this is tied to the fact that it's also important that it was Jin that found Claire (as opposed to, say, Sayid - which would have been kind of nifty as it would have demonstrated the Rouseau parallel etc.). Jin is the Lostie that has had THE most experience with homicidal, slightly crazy folk who aren't afraid to kill to get to their goals. Thus, his ability to intuit Claire's crazyness was a little more fine tuned than, say, Hurley's would have been. Jin is playing the survival game right now - which is, honestly, something he's pretty good at. I don't doubt that he WILL take them to the temple, but Jin's end game isn't the endgame of the Others or of Jacob... he just wants to find Sun. And to do that, he's got to stay alive.

                                                                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                    #25.1 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:49 AM EST
                                                                                                                                    FortifiedHooligan

                                                                                                                                    2) A big question for me is why did Jin lie to Claire about lying to Claire? Since he knew Kate raised Aaron, then why didn't he just explain the situation? He at least knew that she disappeared and Sawyer and Co. found Aaron in the jungle and brought him to the camp. What's so bad about that? And as someone above said, she didn't seem too upset about it when she was in the cabin with Christian and Locke.

                                                                                                                                    I think this is tied to the fact that it's also important that it was Jin that found Claire (as opposed to, say, Sayid - which would have been kind of nifty as it would have demonstrated the Rouseau parallel etc.). Jin is the Lostie that has had THE most experience with homicidal, slightly crazy folk who aren't afraid to kill to get to their goals. Thus, his ability to intuit Claire's crazyness was a little more fine tuned than, say, Hurley's would have been. Jin is playing the survival game right now - which is, honestly, something he's pretty good at. I don't doubt that he WILL take them to the temple, but Jin's end game isn't the endgame of the Others or of Jacob... he just wants to find Sun. And to do that, he's got to stay alive.

                                                                                                                                    Personally, I think he lied about his lie to Claire to save his ass. If she thinks Aaron is in the temple and Jin knows how to get in there, then he is valuable to her and she won't kill him. Now that Flocke is in the picture, that doesn't help Jin since the smoke monster is familiar with parts of the temple if not the whole thing. Atleast the part of the temple that Jin is aware of, where he de-armed a Frenchman

                                                                                                                                      #25.2 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:12 AM EST
                                                                                                                                      Superman2001

                                                                                                                                      I found a couple of things interesting about Claire's situation. More than a couple, actually:

                                                                                                                                      1) The temple folk evidently performed the same test on Claire as they did on Sayid, with the wires and the branding.

                                                                                                                                      2) Why did Jin lie about lying? What did he sense about her that makes him think a) he should take her back to the temple, and b) that she wouldn't kill him for lying to her?

                                                                                                                                      3) How is it that she's so upset about her son now, when she willingly left him in the jungle and was so nonplussed about it in the cabin

                                                                                                                                      @Ashley Keen: Why do you say that Jin has the most experience with crazy jungle people? I'd say it would be Sayid, who was tortured by Rousseau and convinced her to let him go...

                                                                                                                                        #25.3 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:49 PM EST
                                                                                                                                        AshleyKeen

                                                                                                                                        Why do you say that Jin has the most experience with crazy jungle people? I'd say it would be Sayid, who was tortured by Rousseau and convinced her to let him go...

                                                                                                                                        uh uh uh, don't read what's not there ;) I didn't say "crazy jungle people" I said "homicidal, slightly crazy folk who aren't afraid to kill to get to their goals." I was aluding to the mafia-esque work Jin did for his Father-in-law in Japan. I would guess that, as a professional thug, Jin has probably lied to keep the crazy at bay more than once before. ;)

                                                                                                                                          #25.4 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:42 PM EST
                                                                                                                                          Superman2001

                                                                                                                                          Ah. You're right, I saw what I wanted to see.

                                                                                                                                          In that case, I wonder about that, too. Jin mostly just did what he was told to do. I don't know how much interaction he had with these people he was assigned to "take care of." Though you're right, he probably can read people fairly well. He busted Charlotte when she was listening to him and Sun at the medical station.

                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                          #25.5 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:46 PM EST
                                                                                                                                          Brian Ford

                                                                                                                                          Though, Jin *was* with Rouseau when her peeps went crazy, was he not?

                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                          #25.6 - Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:58 PM EST
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