Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Steve Watts's column >>

STEVE WATTS

Electronic Aficionado
Articles Posted: 322  Links Seeded: 1162
Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

LOST: Sayid Chooses a Side in "Sundown"

Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:24 PM EST
By Steve Watts

Live Poll

What did you think of tonight's episode?

View Results
  • 85483
    Fantastic
    55%
  • 85484
    Pretty good
    33%
  • 85485
    Mediocre
    10%
  • 85486
    Terrible
    2%

VoteTotal Votes: 295

Advertise | AdChoices

Sayid is forced to choose who he trusts, while Kate and Claire come face to face for the first time since her disappearance.

ABC Preview:

Sayid is faced with a difficult decision, and Claire sends a warning to the temple inhabitants.

Note: "Lost in the Vines" is made for discussion of the series "Lost" on ABC. As such, here be spoilers! We talk frankly about the events of the night, speculate about future events, and so on. Read no further if you don't want spoilers.

The Big Reveal: Sayid has allied himself with Nemesis, killing Dogen and Lennon in the process.

Summary

Sayid hands money to a taxi driver, and exits with flowers. He approaches a house and rings the doorbell. Nadia answers, and he kisses her. Two children (Zack and Emma) ask "Uncle Sayid" where he was, and he says Australia. Sayid's brother Omar approaches asking why he brought flowers to his wife, and Sayid jokes he'll give them to him instead.

At dinner, the kids ask what he brought from Australia, and he tells them to check his bag. Omar sarcastically says they're lucky he showed up, and Sayid explains how dull his job is translating business contracts. Omar is a manager of his own business, Nadia says, and just opened a new store. Omar gets a call. She chides him for taking it, but he says dinner is over and leaves to take the call. Nadia asks Sayid if he got her letters. He says yes, but she says she never heard back. The kids rush back into the room with boomerangs, and Emma mentions that they found a picture of Nadia in his bag. Omar looks on.

Sayid demands to talk to Dogen, saying he wants answers. He asks about the machine they hooked him up to, and what the test is. Dogen says every man has a scale balancing good and evil. He says the machine tells them how the scale is balanced, and Sayid's tipped the wrong way. That's why they tried to poison him, Dogen explains. Sayid says they don't know him, he's a good man. Dogen kicks him down, but Sayid fights him off and the two start to brawl. Eventually, Dogen pulls a knife and almost stabs Sayid. Instead, he tells him to leave and never come back.

Nemesis asks Claire if she's ready, and she suggests he do it himself. He says if he could do it himself, he wouldn't be asking her. She says if she goes in there, she wants her son back. He tells her that he always does what he says. She asks if he's going to hurt them, and Nemesis tells her he'll only hurt the ones that won't listen.

----------------

Sayid sleeps on the couch, and grabs Omar when he approaches. Omar tells him that he's in trouble, and Sayid asks what kind of trouble. Omar says he's out of money, but he borrowed from a loan shark. Sayid says if he needs money, he'll lend it. Omar says he doesn't need money, the loan shark needs convincing. Omar says he knows what he did in the war, and he knows what kind of man Sayid is. Sayid says that he won't hurt someone for a bad business decision, but Omar begs him. He says he knows Sayid cares about Nadia, and if he cares about her, he'll do this for him. Sayid says he's sorry, but he's not that man anymore.

Miles approaches Sayid, asking what he's doing. Sayid says he's leaving, and has been banished. Miles asks for what, and Sayid says apparently he's evil. He says he's better off dead, which is ironic since they saved his life. Miles says they tried to save him, but he was dead for two hours. He points out that when Sayid came back he was just as surprised as the rest of them, so whatever brought him back it wasn't them.

Claire enters and the guards draw their guns. Lennon asks what she's doing, and she says "he" wants to see Dogen. He asks who, and Claire says he knows who. Claire says he wants Dogen to go to him and is waiting outside. Dogen says he's not a fool, if he steps outside he'll be killed. Claire says he should send someone he won't kill. Dogen tells Lennon to put Claire in the hole and get him Shepard and Reyes. Lennon says they can't find them, and Dogen orders him to find them immediately. Dogen tells Sayid to come with him. Sayid says he thought he wanted him to leave. Dogen says things have changed.

He asks where Jack and Hurley went, and Sayid says he doesn't know. Sayid asks about Claire, and Dogen calls her a confused girl under the influence of an angry man. Sayid asks, what man? Dogen says he's been trapped for years, but now with Jacob gone, he's free. He says he won't stop until he's destroyed every living thing on the Island, and calls him evil incarnate. Dogen takes out a knife, and says he wants him to kill him. Dogen says he'll come to him as someone he knows, who has died. He says as soon as Sayid sees him, he needs to plunge the knife deep into his chest. If he allows him to speak it's already too late. Sayid asks why he'd ever do anything for him. Dogen says that Sayid claimed there is still good in his soul, so he should prove it.

----------------

Zack asks how long Sayid will be spending with them, and he says just a few days since he has to go to Toronto for work. They say that they and their mom like it when he stays. He kisses them and helps them board their school bus. Nadia runs out for him with a concerned look.

In a hospital, they see Omar in a stretcher. A doctor explains that he has a punctured lung, and that EMTs think he was mugged. Sayid starts to leave, but Nadia tells him whatever he's thinking of doing, don't do it. She asks him to go home and wait for the kids. He hugs her.

Sayid walks through the jungle, and meets up with Kate. She asks if he's leaving, and he says he's not sure. She asks what she missed, and he tells her to ask Miles. At the Temple, Miles says Sawyer sent her packing. He says he thought about coming after him too, but he'd end up being berated until he came back. She says that's pretty much what happened. She asks what happened, and he tells her the "Australian chick" is back. He says she strolled in acting strange. Kate urgently asks where she is.

Sayid sets his pack down and takes a drink from his canteen. The leaves begin to rustle, and he draws his knife. Nemesis appears and tells him hello. Sayid immediately stabs him with the knife, and Nemesis pulls it out. He asks, why'd you go and do that?

----------------

Nemesis offers the knife back to Sayid, who takes it. Sayid asks what he is, and Nemesis says he seems to have some idea since he stabbed him without saying hello. Nemesis asks what they said, and Sayid explains they said he's evil incarnate. Nemesis says he feels sorry for him, because Dogen knew he had no chance of killing him, and he believed Nemesis would kill him for trying. Nemesis says shame on him for trying to talk him into it. Sayid asks what he's trying to talk him into. Nemesis says he wants him to deliver a message, because it will mean more coming from him than Claire. He offers Sayid anything he wants in the world. Sayid says the only thing he ever wanted died in his arms and he'll never see it again. Nemesis asks, what if you could?

Nadia finds Sayid gluing a vase, who explains that they had an incident with a boomerang. She asks when the kids went to bed, and he says two hours ago. He says he told them that daddy had an accident but he'll be fine. Nadia says he's recovering from surgery, but he's awake now. Nadia asks if Sayid knew about the loan. She says Omar brought this on himself. After a moment of silence, she asks why he didn't want to be with her. She asks if he cares about her, why did he push her towards his brother? He says the last 12 years he's been trying to wash his hands of the horrible things he's done. He says he can't be with her because he doesn't deserve her.

Dogen asks Sayid what happened. Sayid tells everyone there's a man in the jungle about a mile south. He says he was sent to send a message that Jacob is dead. And because he's gone, they don't have to stay here, they're free. He says the man he met is leaving the Island forever, and those who want to join him can leave the Temple. He says they have until sundown. Cindy asks what happens if they stay. Sayid tells her, they die.

Lennon asks Kate when she got back, but Kate demands to know where Claire is and pushes him to the wall. He leads her to the hole and tells her she has two minutes. Kate looks down into the hole and greets Claire. She asks if Claire is okay. Claire asks if they captured her too. Kate says no, and asks why they put her down here. Claire says they took Aaron, and Kate explains that she took him off the Island to raise him. She says she came back to rescue Claire so she could be with him. Claire says she's not the one that needs to be rescued. The guards pull Kate away, and Claire calls that he's coming, and they can't stop him.

----------------

Lennon urges calm among the Temple residents, and he tells Sayid that he created a panic. Sayid says he just left a message, and what his people do is up to them. Cindy starts to leave and Lennon urges them to stay in the Temple. Cindy says Jacob's dead and it isn't safe here. Lennon shouts that it's a bluff, and Nemesis can't get in. Miles asks what's going on, and Sayid pulls the knife, saying he has to return it.

A man asks Sayid if he's going to pick up the kids. He he tells Sayid to get in the car, unless he wants them to pick up the kids together. Sayid gets in, meets with a man in the back of a kitchen. He takes a seat. The man, Keamy, asks if wants some eggs, but Sayid refuses. Keamy finishes his own meal and introduces himself. He asks Sayid how his brother is doing, and talks about how he was mugged in front of his store. Keamy says at least he's still around to take care of his family.

Keamy says Sayid is a direct guy, so he'll get to it. He says his brother owes him money. Sayid says Omar has paid him everything he owes. Keamy calls it a lie, but Sayid simply asks if he put his brother in the hospital. Keamy says he didn't do it, it's a dangerous world. Sayid disarms the guards and holds a gun to Keamy. Keamy says it's done, and that Omar doesn't owe him anything. He tells him to relax and forget about it. Sayid says he can't, and he shoots Keamy. Sayid hears a noise from the fridge, and enters to find Jin. He takes the tape off his mouth, and Jin talks in Korean. Sayid asks who he is, and Jin says "no English."


----------------


Dogen looks at his baseball outside the foyer pool. He says that Sayid let him talk to him. Sayid says he stabbed in in the chest, and then he let him talk to him. He drops the knife and says that's twice he let someone else try to kill him. He asks why Dogen didn't just kill Sayid himself. Dogen says he was a businessman in Osaka, at a bank. He says he was good at his job, and was promoted. His associates took him out to celebrate and he had too much to drink. He says every Friday he would pick his 12-year-old son up from baseball. He says he got in an accident; he survived but his son didn't. He tells him that in the hospital, a man he never met came to him. He says the man told him that if he could save his son's life, Dogen would have to come to the Island for a new job and he could never see his son again.


Sayid asks who the man was, and Dogen says his name was Jacob. Sayid observes that Jacob drives a hard bargain. Dogen asks if Nemesis offered a similar bargain, and Sayid says yes. Dogen notices it's sundown, and asks if Sayid will stay or go. Sayid says he'd like to stay, then grabs Dogen and forces him into the water, holding him under until he goes limp. Lennon comes in, asking what he's done. Lennon says Dogen was the only thing keeping it out, and Sayid just let it in. Sayid takes the knife and kills Lennon, and says he knows.

The guards watch as the Smoke Monster grabs people. Kate and Miles make their escape as the Smoke Monster assaults the Temple. Kate says she has to go get Claire, and Miles runs the other direction. He closes a door and braces himself against it. Ilana busts in, asking where everyone is. He says they're gone, he's the only one left. Frank enters and tells him they have to catch up later. He tells them Sayid is in the pool room, and Ben goes to get him. Ilana leads Frank, Miles, and Sun away.

Kate comes to get Claire and throws her the ladder. Claire says they'll be safer here. Kate jumps into the pit and sees the Smoke Monster passing overhead. Ben tells Sayid they have to get out, and that there's still time. Sayid says, not for me. Miles mentions to Sun that Jin left yesterday. Ilana finds the Temple's secret exit, and leads Frank, Miles, and Sun through it moments before the Smoke Monster passes through the hallway.

Sayid passes through the remains of the Temple. Kate looks at the destruction as she walks with Claire. Sayid walks out of the Temple with Claire to meet with Nemesis and his other followers. Kate watches as they walk away.

Cut to LOST

The Big Questions:

  • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?
  • What really saved Sayid's life?
  • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?
  • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?
  • Is Dogen really dead?
  • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

Lost in the Vines Trivia Question:

List the cab rates for the taxi that Sayid took to Nadia's house. (Numbers only, in order).

This Week in Original Articles:

Once again those who write original articles this year will be entered (once per week) in this year's contest. Contributing original articles or being the first to answer the trivia questions are the ways to be entered, so feel free to write!

  • Show Me Yours and I'll Show You Mine (say what??)

Next, on Lost: Dr. Linus

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Steve Watts's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Entertainment Gateway, Lost in the Vines, TV Lounge
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (368)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
Steve Watts

Another Lost night! I rated this episode as Fantastic. I have a soft spot for Sayid, and this episode was a fairly self-contained character study. I like when the flashes correspond to what's happening on the Island, which they've gotten out of the habit of as of late. This episode returned to that form by showing Sayid attempting to do the right thing, but evil finding him nonetheless.

I also refuse to accept that Nemesis is the "good" force of the Island. Thematically, the color black has been associated with evil from the beginning, making his rock throw ("inside joke") a sure sign that he's supposed to be the evil one. But if there was any doubt, he just killed a bunch of people. I mean, come on. He's deceptive in his honesty. I think that's good writing, not a good character.

Anyway, onto the big questions.

How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

Island magic! I don't think we really can know the answer to this one at all, it's just one of those things we're supposed to accept. At first I thought it was interesting that Dogen didn't mention which side Sayid fell on, merely that he was on the "wrong" side. But later, by calling Nemesis "evil incarnate" and talking about the good in Sayid's soul, that was cleared up.

What really saved Sayid's life?

This is a tricky one; sort of a retread from a question we already had, but it still hasn't been answered and Miles brought it back up. The obvious answer is that Nemesis did it somehow, or some amount of anti-Jacob powers. The water wasn't clear anymore, and when he came back he was corrupted. That doesn't explain why they would dunk him in the first place when he was already dying, and it definitely doesn't explain how Nemesis would have any powers inside the Temple if he needed Dogen to die to get in.

What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

Catching a cold, from the looks of it.

I imagine this is one of those things that will be answered when Jin has his own flashback. They're slowly showing that their lives intersect whether 815 crashed or not.

Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

I know this is literally something Sayid asked, but he brought up a good point! And Dogen didn't even answer it! He just went into an anecdote about his dead son. I suppose it could have something to do with Dogen being on the "good" side and not wanting to be corrupted. But still. Strange that he kept trying to get other people to do the job for him.

Is Dogen really dead?

I'm going to say yes. Being drowned in that pool could mean he'll revive later, but I doubt it. Mainly because...

How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

He explained that he was there because he made a deal with Jacob. As a guess, I'd say Dogen was something like a lieutenant of the Island Guard, so to speak. He wasn't the next Jacob, tasked with protecting all of the Island. But he was apparently imbued with enough authority to protect a small, specific portion of it: the Temple.

  • 14 votes
#1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:31 PM EST
Brian Ford

Oh my.

I rated it terrible.

In fact: I say it's one of the worst in several seasons.

I'll elaborate tomorrow, but for this:

If Keamy hadn't been killed, I'd have rated it an F-

As it stands? D-

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:24 PM EST
Steve Watts

Hm, really? I'll be interested to hear why.

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:31 PM EST
BlackRock Steve

I'll be curious as to what Brian's objections are, but I rated it mediocre (at best) and was also very disappointed, especially after the great episodes and directing so far this season! VERY disjointed and poorly scripted...

  • a good example being Illana & group sudden arrival with Smokey'a attack.
  • I don't think I've seen Kate look so clueless & useless to the island plot in seasons.
  • Very very predictable. Although I didn't see it coming in last week's episode, I knew Dogen was dead the minute he gave that knife to Sayid...after that, it felt like the rest of the show was "filler".
  • I guess the 'surprise' will be when you tune in next week and find out that Dogen isn't dead because Sayid drowned him in Jacob's magic spring after Jacob "fixed it" last week!?
  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:51 PM EST
Inchiki

Hey BR Steve,

I can understand your (and others') disappointment with the episode. As y'all know, TV shows are either plot driven (for example, the police procedural) or character driven (dramas). This is one of the few shows that had a really nice blend--must avoid using word "balance'--of plot and character, but was more character driven. The producers are always speaking of resolving character issues, for instance. So when the show puts more emphasis on driving the plot, characters sometimes end up doing things against their nature or just plain stupid.

I know Battlestar Galactica had its fans but it was tremendously plot driven, and I hated it. To me the characters were puppets and were always doing implausible things.

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:20 AM EST
BlackRock Steve

Inchiki.........I HIGHLY agree with your comments and this show is all about "character" (and the nature of man). My disappointment this week after a run of genius scripts and episodes going back to last year is that the dialogue for this show between the characters was weak and predictable...except for Dogen's initial discussion....they missed a chance to have more reveals and/or "mystical" comments in key scenes on the island!!

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:03 AM EST
robinm85

the promos for the last week promised "answers" to "questions". Yeah, right. I got no answers and just more questions. Overall, anytime Sayid gets to kick butt, I rate the show at least pretty good. But I think Sayid has gone over to the other side and may have been mostly bad the whole time. He has been struggling with his soul and I think finally evil has won him over. Just my humble opinion, however.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:35 AM EST
AshleyKeen

I gotta say, I'm with Brian on this one. This was the WORST not Kate-or-Jack-centric episode of the show in all six seasons. No real plot progression (OMG Flock and Claire went to the temple and wreaked havoc just like we knew they would last week! Holy Cow! Shocker!) and they effectively took a machine gun to all the plot development they've done with Sayid since season one. Ew.

  • 3 votes
#1.7 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:49 AM EST
Anjillina

Oh thank goodness for Brian! As a fervid Lostie, I felt like I shouldn't rate it worse than "pretty good" - but it really wasn't. I hated it. I can't even think of anything I liked about it. Some few points were vaguely interesting - Keamy's reappearance for instance. But generally I thought it was awful. And it didn't help that they did a huge buildup for it last week.

  • 1 vote
#1.8 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:54 AM EST
Rebecca D

I wasn't impressed either. I rated it mediocre.

    #1.9 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:17 AM EST
    Brian Ford

    Hm, really? I'll be interested to hear why.

    I'm not even going to bother with the questions this week, because all I can say is:

    Brian's Jeers

    • Dogen. I hate everything about that character. Why the hell did they introduce a brand new character as part of the last season of Lost, go through the trouble of having him show up in a flashback, and then freaking kill him? Gee, let's see. Who could have served this purpose while having the convenience of being an established character? Oh, I know! That Sheriff lady we haven't heard from ever since she was the first person to brand someone. (Juliet.) Though, a quick check in the Lost wiki "confirms" that she was killed. Offscreen, apparently. Wasting a character who we might have recognized and who would have suddenly had a much higher purpose. Kind of stupid. Also, I imagine the story about leaving her child to come to the Island--to save the kid--would have been more poignant, if it had been a mother. With Dogen? Don't care. Don't know anything about him, so it's hard for me to empathize. Don't even get me started on his hippie-dippy buddy. Worst character ever. Also, Kate has him at the throat and is obviously able to kick his ass, but in the next scene, he's pushing her around and leading her by the arm? Weird.
    • The Temple distraction. Quick! Get to the Temple! Quick! Get out of the Temple! Blech. Did anything happen "in the Temple" that couldn't have happened elsewhere and with less episode waste?
    • Random encounters in the Jungle: "Oh, hey Kate. I'm going this way. Have fun."
    • QUESTIONS! WILL! BE! ANSWERED! (Just kidding.) I realize the promo guys do what they will, but usually when they say that, there is at least one vague question answered. In this case, more questions were raised, but I can't think of a single "question" that was answered. A lot more were raised, though. I'm no more sure about what the deal is with Sayid than I was before the episode. (Is he sick? Manipulated?) Same with Claire. Amazingly, I'm still conflicted as to which side is good and which is bad. (Ambiguous just isn't cutting it for me, with 10 episodes left.)
    • Sayid off Island is a reminder that the writers, at some point, dropped the ball on characters I used to care about. Kate? Beh. Sayid? Meh. Jack? Whine. Sawyer? Mope. I dunno, I just don't have much invested in their happiness because for season after season, I've been convinced by the writers that they'll never have it, no matter how available it is. What's to root for? Hurley, I guess. The people I *did* still like have been systematically killed off. Charlie and Claire: Dead and crazy. (Remember back when they were the only real love story worth rooting for and admiring?) Desmond: Seemingly written out. Michael and Walt: Dead and too old to be useful to the plot. Jin and Sun: Tantalizingly close to seeing each other, over and over again. Kind of frustrating, really. As for Sayid: Boring, boring off Island presence. Once again, he doesn't get Nadia, and once again, we get treated to a "I'm not that man anymore" only to find out that he is plot. But, again, at least Keamy only lasted about two minutes, this time. If Sayid had let the third man live after killing the two henchmen, I would have sworn off Lost forever.
    • Red shirt others: The guy we've feared all this time tells us to come out, or we'll die? Okay. We'll do it!
    • Overall, this was a filler episode. I didn't see the character development that other people are talking about, or that this was "character driven" in any meaningful way. Did we learn anything new about Sayid? Nope. Dogen? Who cares if we did, but--not really.
    • "Why did you let me live, when you could have killed me?" "Instead of answering that story, let me talk to you about something else..." The one question that *could* have been answered, was avoided.
    • The rushed last 5 minutes. Oh, hey. It's Lapidis and Sun and that tough woman who isn't Anna Lucia. Oh, hey. I'm Claire, and I hate Kate now, but I help her avoid Smokey, for some weird reason.

    I hated, hated, hated this episode, and with 10 to go, that's going to probably be my general response every single time they don't use at least 5 minutes of dialogue to explain something that is still confusing, to me, or every time new layers of mystery are added onto old layers.

    Unless Desmond is involved.

    • 12 votes
    #1.10 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:50 AM EST
    Shaun Guidolin

    all valid points.. personally I just want this thing to be over. The side flash to me is just a real waste of time, because we don't really know whether any of it matters or not at this point..

    Lost is better when they move the plot and show all the characters .. focusing on 1 character week after week just slows everything down. Just get on with it already.. it's Jack as good vs Sawyer as bad.. just do it already, and move the plot

      #1.11 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:26 AM EST
      Shaun Guidolin

      What really saved Sayid's life?

      The water resurrected him .. but at that point Nemesis was in power, so the water was "cloudy"

      Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

      You can't kill somebody that is already dead ... And Dogen didn't have enough "power" to kill him. He could only kill himself or have Jacob 2.0 (Jack) kill him ...

      How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

      Dogen had just enough "good" power to hold off Nemesis

      • 2 votes
      #1.12 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:39 AM EST
      Brian Ford

      You can't kill somebody that is already dead ... And Dogen didn't have enough "power" to kill him. He could only kill himself or have Jacob 2.0 (Jack) kill him ...

      Then why the pointless fight? Why the "leave, oh wait, no stay for a minute, after all" crap?

      all valid points.. personally I just want this thing to be over.

      Amen. For better or for worse, i'm just tired of being confused. I give them a 50/50 shot of ending this successfully, but I'm ready for it to be over. I figure I'll either be surprised by the ending and how well it wraps up, or I'll spend my life feeling unfulfilled and like something that I expected to be addressed/cleared up--wasn't. I'm hoping for the former, but betting on the latter.

      • 1 vote
      #1.13 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:45 AM EST
      rulax1574

      I'm with Brian on this episode. Been disappointed so far. Hoping the ending isn't lame.

        #1.14 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:46 AM EST
        JohnBoy813

        Brian,

        I think the reason that Clair is keeping Kate alive for now is to learn where Arron is. Once she gets this information she will kill (or attempt to kill) her, as this is what she told Jin she would do if Kate had him.

        • 3 votes
        #1.15 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:04 AM EST
        Brian Ford

        Once she gets this information she will kill (or attempt to kill) her, as this is what she told Jin she would do if Kate had him.

        Which is odd, given that Kate is pretty clearly willing to divulge that information, without the need for death threats.

        • 1 vote
        #1.16 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:06 AM EST
        Suzy Q 184

        I rated it as Pretty Good even though it didn't really feel like it deserved it. I can always tell how good an episode is by how anxious I am to get here and discuss it with everyone else!! And this morning, I wasn't in any rush. I don't really even have anything to contribute other to ask if anyone knows what the hieroglyphics on the steps coming out of the water in the temple are supposed to mean?

        • 1 vote
        #1.17 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:16 AM EST
        Brian Ford

        FWIW:

        A tribute to Toga.

        Err. Dogen.

        I think the neverseenlost.wordpress.com guy agrees with me: This episode sucked.

        • 1 vote
        #1.18 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:26 PM EST
        Superman2001

        Brian,

        For all the flaws this episode had (and really, all of them, lately), I loved it. The BIG answer that I got from this episode was to the question that was raised with Jacob told the Temple people that if Sayid died, they were all in trouble. This episode cleared up a little bit of the ambiguity that has surrounded these episodes that have teased us with this conflict, and last night, we got the conflict.

        • 2 votes
        #1.19 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:09 PM EST
        Brian Ford

        I'm not sure what you mean by that? What was cleared up by Sayid not having died? It seems as though his death would have been *better for* the Temple people, and certainly better for any follower of Jacob.

          #1.20 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:30 PM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          I was dissapointed but thrilled all at the sametime.

          I've put Sayid and Nemisis into my "Douchebags of Glory" category. I really hope they get their come uppins.

          Sayid is bad. And he's always been bad. There's nothing good in him no matter what anyone says. In every reality, he allows himself to be manipulated by others into doing outright evil stuff. QED, he's a douchebag for letting people do that to him, and he's just bad.

          • He let's the US Army torturer to use him as a tool to torture his commander (The guy in the hatch with Desmond)
          • He tortures Nadia
          • He tortures Sawyer
          • He tries to kill little Ben
          • Takes Nemisis deal and Kills 2 people (responsible for killing everyone else there too)
          • He even has an evil smile on his face at the end
          • In "FlashSideways" he's still a skilled murderer
          • And off Island 3 years he goes on Assassin vacation a Ben's request (against used like a Douchebag)
          • And everytime he does this stuff, he's being used by someone else. Nemisis played him like a fiddle.

          The moment I thought was priceless was when Kate comes out and sees all of them and is like..."Oh F I'm with the bad guys...."

          Amen. For better or for worse, i'm just tired of being confused. I give them a 50/50 shot of ending this successfully, but I'm ready for it to be over. I figure I'll either be surprised by the ending and how well it wraps up, or I'll spend my life feeling unfulfilled and like something that I expected to be addressed/cleared up--wasn't. I'm hoping for the former, but betting on the latter.

          Hahahaha. Brian. I didn't know it was this important to you. "Life unfulfilled"

          I've watched every single episode since the very beginning and watch all the online (off main story) videos as well.

          This season has been So-so to me as well. After Season 5 was flat out brilliant. Season 5 was as good as Season 1, and that's saying a lot because Season 1 blew everyone away.

          They keep pimping that "Questions will be answered" and in some ways they are. But it seems new episodes bring new questions as well.

          Like Clair. So...who was Christian who drew Claire off? I would say Nemisis. But then Claire tells Jin that her "Father" told her that they (Temple Others) had Aaron and her "Friend" told her too.

          Then when Locke (Nemisis) comes in, Jin says "Locke?" and Claire says "Locke? No, that's my friend." So...where's her father??? Christian is her father. So what's up?

          We believe that we know why they were drawn to the Island. Jacob and Nemsis are scoping candidates. But why is now so important? Jacob and Nemisis have been on the Island for 100s of years.

          • 4 votes
          #1.21 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:55 PM EST
          Nicey-1026620

          I'm not sure what you mean by that? What was cleared up by Sayid not having died? It seems as though his death would have been *better for* the Temple people, and certainly better for any follower of Jacob.

          Not sure. I've been thinking about it. But Jacob did tell Hurley that if they didn't save Sayid it would be bad.

            #1.22 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:59 PM EST
            Superman2001

            I'm not sure what you mean by that? What was cleared up by Sayid not having died? It seems as though his death would have been *better for* the Temple people, and certainly better for any follower of Jacob.

            Sayid did die. That's what allowed him to be claimed.

            And that claiming is what allowed Bad Locke to infiltrate the Temple, by means of Sayid -- a man with free passage into and out of the Temple. Without convincing Sayid to kill Dogen, Bad Locke doesn't get past the security system (this raised another question: is the ash meaningless now, since Dogen is face down in the spring?)

            So, the way I understand it, Bad Locke needed Dogen dead, and claimed Sayid to that end, and now, five weeks later, Dogen is dead, Bad Locke has unfettered access to all areas of the Island, and is bringing Hell with him.

            • 3 votes
            #1.23 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:02 PM EST
            Nicey-1026620

            Sayid did die. That's what allowed him to be claimed.

            I don't think it's that easy though.

            In order to get healed in the pool, you have to die anyway. Claimed or not. Ben was never claimed. But they had to drown him to heal him in the pool.

            I don't know if Jacob anticipated Nemisis being able to muddy the pool, which was normally clear.

            is the ash meaningless now, since Dogen is face down in the spring?

            I was also curious, because I thought the power of the ashes was in Jacob? When they used them in the Statue, Nemisis was not able to get around Jacobs ashes, that had nothing to do with Dogen.

            • 2 votes
            #1.24 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:08 PM EST
            Superman2001

            I don't think it's that easy though.

            In order to get healed in the pool, you have to die anyway. Claimed or not. Ben was never claimed. But they had to drown him to heal him in the pool.

            I don't know if Jacob anticipated Nemisis being able to muddy the pool, which was normally clear.

            ???

            There's no indication that they drowned Ben in the pool. Sure maybe they dipped him, but he was alive when Richard took him, and there was never anything to make us thing that he died. You don't have to die to be healed. Think about Dogen's hand: he cut it to test the water. He didn't expect to die in order for his hand to be healed.

            Sayid, on the other hand, was dead, as Miles said, for two hours. Not unconscious, not recovering, but dead.

            I was also curious, because I thought the power of the ashes was in Jacob? When they used them in the Statue, Nemisis was not able to get around Jacobs ashes, that had nothing to do with Dogen.

            Bram actually seemed to have ashes in his pocket, ready to go for such an occasion. They weren't Jacob's ashes.

            • 1 vote
            #1.25 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 5:11 PM EST
            T Bourlon

            Well I thought it was FANTASTIC! First, because it was a Sayid episode, though too bad that he went totally bad! Sayid has always struggled with his bad self, and in one episode admitted that there has always been a part of him that was bad.

            I know the sideways flashes are annoying, but I think they have finally been explained. UnLocke offered Sayid "anything you want," and Sayid said that what he wanted most died in his arms - clearly Nadia. UnLocke said "what if you could have it anyway?" Later Dogen explained that Jacob offered him a chance to save HIS son's life, but that he would never see his son again. We know that Jack has a son in the sideways flash; those sideways flashes are the lives they COULD have. In order for Jack to be Jacob, he will have to give up ever seeing HIS son. And Sayid can have Nadia again, but not really, because as he said he's "not good enough for her."

            I also think it's clear that the temple others weren't there to protect the Island from people (like Widmore) so much as to protect other people from the Island. Not only did Nemesis have to kill Jacob, but he had to wipe out the people in the temple before he could leave. I predict he will head to that well, or whatever that station was, where Ben and Locke turned the wheel and ended up in Tunesia. That's the "home" that he wants to go to.

            As far as why Dogen didn't kill Sayid, well "there are rules," aren't there? Clearly they applied to Dogen as well as Nemesis, who STILL used another person (Sayid) to kill Dogen, because HE can't. It's against the "rules." The falling baseball reminded Dogen of the rules. And as I said in an earlier column, that's why UnLocke didn't kill Richard, because to do so would violate the rules.

            I don't really CARE what Jin was doing in the freezer, where was Jin and Sawyer? I didn't see them in the group outside the temple. Maybe they were having a beer with Roger Workman? (just kidding!)

            • 3 votes
            #1.26 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 5:35 PM EST
            Brian Ford

            Sayid has always struggled with his bad self

            Here's my interpretation of that:

            Scene:

            Sayid, talking with someone.

            "Sayid, we need you to torture someone. We think they know where the last snickers is."

            "I left that life behind."

            "Well, think about it, then."

            Scene:

            Later that day

            "WHERE'S THE SNICKERS YOU BASTARD?! HOW'S THIS FEEL? *PLIERS* NAAADDIIIIIAAAAA DON'T LOOK AT MEEEE!"

            • 4 votes
            #1.27 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 5:43 PM EST
            say what??

            They weren't Jacob's ashes.

            Ilana, who just arrived at the temple, does have Jacob's ashes - she took them from the firepit knowing she would need them to use against NemLocke. Dead is not really dead on the island - Jacob is influencing events through Hurley and I believe we will see that his burned remains have power. Dead Charlie visited Hurley at the mental institution and when Hurley said "you're dead" Charlie replied, "I'm dead but I'm here." The island dead have their role to play, and I thought it was interesting when Dogen told Sayid, "I think it will be best if you are dead." To me that's different than saying "I think you should/must die" which has more of a finality to it. Events happen on the island in the land of the living (in front of the mirror) and the land of the dead (reflection in the mirror). Those in front of the mirror affect events directly while those in the reflection do it indirectly. If Sayid must be a player, Dogen thinks it will be best if it is as a reflection. (Just an observation - in the flash sideways when Sayid goes up to the door of his brother's house his reflection in the glass is momentarily visible)

            • 3 votes
            #1.28 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 6:17 PM EST
            Superman2001

            Yes, Ilana did gather Jacob's ashes, but only after Bram was killed. I was (and I assume Nicey was, also) referring to the ashes that Bram surrounded himself with in order to protect himself from Smokey in the foot of the statue. THOSE weren't Jacob's ashes.

            • 1 vote
            #1.29 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 6:25 PM EST
            say what??

            Agreed. My point is that Jacob's actual ashes are now in Ilana's bag and they must have some special power or she wouldn't have taken them. I would like to know the source of all the other ashes - commenters have asked that question b/c we have seen large quantities of ash being spread about, so what was burned to create all those ashes and why are - were - they protection against Nemesis?

              #1.30 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 6:33 PM EST
              Nicey-1026620

              ???

              There's no indication that they drowned Ben in the pool.

              They had to drown Sayid. It appeared to be the normal healing process. Why would Ben have been (haha play on words) any different?

              Sure maybe they dipped him, but he was alive when Richard took him

              Sayid was also alive when they took him. They drowned him, remember? He struggled and thrashed in the pool till they drowned him.

              , and there was never anything to make us thing that he died. You don't have to die to be healed. Think about Dogen's hand: he cut it to test the water. He didn't expect to die in order for his hand to be healed.

              In my view, it depends on how critical the injury is.

              Sayid, on the other hand, was dead, as Miles said, for two hours. Not unconscious, not recovering, but dead.

              He was not dead when they took him into the pool. He was dead because they drowned him trying to heal him in the pool. There was every indication that they (temple people) thought it would work (even with the water discolored).

              Bram actually seemed to have ashes in his pocket, ready to go for such an occasion. They weren't Jacob's ashes.

              Yes, but the girl grabs a handful of Jacob's ashes. I assumed for future protection, but I guess it could have been sentimental.

              • 2 votes
              #1.31 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 9:38 AM EST
              Nicey-1026620

              "WHERE'S THE SNICKERS YOU BASTARD?! HOW'S THIS FEEL? *PLIERS* NAAADDIIIIIAAAAA DON'T LOOK AT MEEEE!"

              Haha, so true.

              Sayid breaks out torturing or pretty much any deception when it suits the immediate "needs" or if someone just asks him to.

              Ben convinced him to be an assassin, Jack convinces him with ease to torture Sawyer, Nemesis easily convinces him to be responsible for the murder of about 20 people, etc, etc.

              • 2 votes
              #1.32 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 9:41 AM EST
              Nicey-1026620

              Yes, Ilana did gather Jacob's ashes, but only after Bram was killed. I was (and I assume Nicey was, also) referring to the ashes that Bram surrounded himself with in order to protect himself from Smokey in the foot of the statue. THOSE weren't Jacob's ashes.

              I was. But* what gives the ashes their power? My guess would have been Jacob bestowed them so. If so, I guess his death passed the protection to Dogen possibly, so if Dogen died then I guess the power is gone.

              But* why does she have his ashes if there's no more power in them?

                #1.33 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 9:44 AM EST
                Reply
                Anjillina
              • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul? Your guess is as good as mine. Doesn't hurt if they're good? Or something intervenes and stops the process?
              • What really saved Sayid's life? EVIL!
              • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge? Keamy and his morons were the goons to whom Jin was delivering the watch.
              • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself? To interntionally kill another when you don't have too is to open up the door to the evil and invite it in. Dogen knew that.
              • Is Dogen really dead? Not to Hurley and Miles. But to everyone else - probably.
              • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out? That was his job for which he was recruited by Jacob. Jacob gave him the instructions.
              • I bet I'm going to be the odd one out this week, but I did not care for this episode. I don't like the dark side running rampant, and that's what they are doing right now. I'm irritated that Sayid chose the dark. And I can't believe folks are still debating who is good and who isn't. Nemesis is dark, evil and nasty. Jacob is good. To people who believe life is supposed to be a free ride, he may not seem good. Because he is also fair. So when people do bad things, they are required to make restitution to stay on the good team. That is fair and just. Which is also good.

                What the heck is Kate doing? I realize her goal was bring back Claire. But now she's trotting around with the Evil Axis and she doesn't even know what she's doing. I think that scene made it pretty clear what kind of folks she's hanging with yet she went with them anyway. Doofus.

                And, despite the fact I've always despised Ben (only because M.E. plays him so well!), I really really really don't want him to get killed or something next week. That would totally suck, yet the next week thing seemed to imply that. UGH. I love Hurley, I'm glad he wasn't at the temple, but right now it seems like the good guys are getting squashed like bugs AND some of my favorites flipped to side EVIL way too easily. Ticks me off.

                • 9 votes
                #2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:39 PM EST
                Syntactic Tree

                What the heck is Kate doing? I realize her goal was bring back Claire. But now she's trotting around with the Evil Axis and she doesn't even know what she's doing. I think that scene made it pretty clear what kind of folks she's hanging with yet she went with them anyway. Doofus.

                True, but her crinkled facial expression seemed to suggest she knew something was wrong. Even in her steps she was very hesitant. I think she went with them because she knew she had no choice.

                • 8 votes
                #2.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:01 PM EST
                pinkcap

                I have to agree with Syntactic Tree. She looked totally confused. She's just following her friends. She knows something isn't right with Claire, but she hasn't spent enough time with her to know that the Claire she knew no longer exists.

                • 5 votes
                #2.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:20 PM EST
                Herbcules74

                Hi Anjillina,

                Just one comment to one of your answers.

              • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself? To interntionally kill another when you don't have too is to open up the door to the evil and invite it in. Dogen knew that.
              • If that is true then why in the first episode when our losties were first brought to the temple did Dogen order them to be shot? Wouldn't that intentionally be killing someone when you don't have too?

                • 3 votes
                #2.3 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:54 PM EST
                NCL70506

                I agree with Syntactic Tree and pinkcap. Kate stuck to her mission of finding Claire, but she was not prepared for the circumstances in which she found her. Kate, knowing the Others at the Temple are protecting the survivors, asks Claire why she is down in that hole. Claire asks Kate if she was captured too, and Kate replies no. Then Kate is pulled away and is probably confused. She goes back to help Claire get out of the hole, and they go out to see all the chaos.

                It was strange to see Nemesis staring at Kate, and then he just turned around and started walking. What I noticed, and is typical of Kate, is that she picked up a rifle at that time. She does not trust this situation and will have a gun handy to defend herself if necessary.

                • 5 votes
                #2.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:03 AM EST
                Anjillina

                I get what you're saying with Kate. I just wouldn't stay with a group that just slaughtered a compound full of people, I don't care who I thought I knew in the group. Although to be fair, maybe she's just biding her time until she can sneak away quietly. But I still think she should have gone with Miles.

                As for the Dogen wanting to shoot folks - his job as temple protector is to protect the temple. No one is allowed in without Jacob's say so or advance warning or something. Rules of war. That's completely different than cold-blooded murder.

                • 3 votes
                #2.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:50 AM EST
                CrimsonKing

                I wouldn't say Kate went with them - it was a 5 second scene....she started walking away. Besides, if someone or something just trashed a temple and slaughtered dozens, prudence says "Go with the flow". The Temple inhabitants outside with Locke aren't evil, just protecting number 1. They shouldn't be called Other any longer, they should be called Sheep.

                And I think this is following a tried and true formula - in order for Good to be heroic and triumph, Evil has to be strong and insurmountable. If Jack defeats his evil hangnail on his pinky finger, its not compelling television - he (or Hurley, I would soooo prefer it be Hurley who is Chosen) needs a challenge!

                Think of it another way - ever watch Pro Wrestling? The bad guy dominates the middle of the match, pummeling the Hero, until the Hero calls upon his inner strength and sends the Bad Guy to his doom. Same pattern here. Evil needs to be seen as in control, for the fall to have any meaning.

                • 8 votes
                #2.6 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:59 AM EST
                pinkcap

                Kate was leaving with Miles, but she stopped to rescue Claire, who didn't need rescuing. Kate doesn't know where Miles went, and she still thinks Sayid, Claire, and John Locke are her allies. She doesn't even know if Miles survived the attack. She's going with safety in numbers at this point.

                • 4 votes
                #2.7 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:07 AM EST
                Pfemm

                to add to pinkcap's statement...

                Smokey trashed the camp. correct me if i'm wrong(it's early) I don't think Kate knows that Flocke is Smokey.

                • 5 votes
                #2.8 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:28 AM EST
                Anjillina

                CrimsonKing - I agree 100%! I SOOOO would prefer if Hurley was the Chosen. Although like I said before, I wouldn't wish being stuck on that island on anybody. But if it's an honor, I'd rather see it go to Hurley. Jack is totally hot and an interesting character study, but he reminds me of an emo kid on a soap opera.

                • 3 votes
                #2.9 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:36 AM EST
                mrosebud42

                You have to remember....no one really liked "The Empire Strikes Back" when it first came out either. We've come to appreciate it over time. Also, the 5th Act of all of Shakesperes Tragedies are where all the really bad and dark stuff happens. I wasn't upset by this episode at all.

                • 1 vote
                #2.10 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:56 AM EST
                Anjillina

                Who didn't? I LOVED Empire Strikes Back and I was a young teen when I saw it. I thought the whole Han/Leia thing was the most romantic thing ever! And very action packed.

                • 2 votes
                #2.11 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:09 AM EST
                JohnBoy813

                mrosebud42, speak for yourself, Empire was my favorite of the first 3 movies.

                And I agree with Pfemm, I don't think that Kate knows that Flock is smokey and I don't believe that Kate even know that Lock isn't Lock but Flock.

                • 1 vote
                #2.12 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:15 AM EST
                kmnecole

                Shouldn't Kate know that Locke is dead? I mean, Sawyer was on the island since '77 but he knew. Kate has been basically in the same vicinity with Sawyer since she came back to the island- and maybe I'm not remembering correctly- but if Sawyer can say to FLocke "aren't you dead"- shouldn't Kate be saying this as well- instead of just following along? I mean, I agree that at this point she doesn't have much choice, but that's a WTF moment if ever there was one?

                • 1 vote
                #2.13 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:27 AM EST
                AshleyKeen

                I'd like to say that if Ben dies in the next episode I'll stop watching the show...

                ... but we all know that's a lie.

                • 3 votes
                #2.14 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:39 AM EST
                pinkcap

                kmnecole........Kate does know that Locke is dead. I think that's why she looks confused at the end. I'm sure when the scene continues in a future episode we'll see her asking John what happened. She never saw the body. She just has Jack's word on this. She could be thinking that Jack was mistaken or, given the fact that she traveled back to 1977, anything is possible - even someone coming back to life.

                • 3 votes
                #2.15 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:00 PM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                Nemesis is dark, evil and nasty. Jacob is good

                That's relative.

                They're both not good.

                Both are self interested. Ones intentions might be "noble" but only by his definition of noble. They both have lists, and have both intruded on others peoples lives to recruit.

                Arguably, Jacob was responsible for Nadia's death forcing Sayid to come back to the Island.

                I think that scene made it pretty clear what kind of folks she's hanging with yet she went with them anyway. Doofus.

                She didn't know. Didn't you see her look when she came outside and realized who she was with? She was horrified. But she can't freak out, Nemisis would kill her instantly.

                • 1 vote
                #2.16 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:14 PM EST
                Nicey-1026620

                Sawyer was on the island since '77 but he knew.

                His instincts knew. He didn't have knowledge that he was dead. He just knew from knowing Locke, that it wasn't Locke.

                She never saw the body. She just has Jack's word on this.

                Jack came to her with a News Paper Article. I'm sure she doesn't think it was just Jack's word. It was in the Obits.

                • 1 vote
                #2.17 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:17 PM EST
                Reply
                Bandit-847315

                Great show tonight, any show with Sayid is good. All he ever wanted is Nadia, he feels that the only way that this will happen is siding with Nemesis.

                Cheers -

                Sayid, kicking ass in both timelines.

                The Big Questions:

                • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul? Tough question, not sure about that one.
                • What really saved Sayid's life? Nemesis, after Jacob was killed Nemesis has control somehow.
                • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge? The money he had at the airport belonged to them, his payback.
                • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself? Rules of the island, to protect those in the temple he can not kill.
                • Is Dogen really dead? Don't think so, he woould be similar to when Sayid was in the water and they killed him, Dogen will now be with Nemesis.
                • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out? He was one that Jacob had there to protect. as long as he followed the rules of the 'game', Nemesis had to follow the rules. With him dead, nemesis could get in.
                • 4 votes
                Reply#3 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:41 PM EST
                blackwidow1

                Wow oh wow oh wow! Fantastic episode all around.

                Why was Kate allowed to live? And go with Flocke’s group? Did her reason for returning to the island – to rescue Claire and reunite her to Aaron have anything to do with her being granted passage with Flocke’s group since she didn’t make a choice.

                Had to laugh at Flocke’s line, “Why’d you go and do that for?” after being stabbed by Sayid.

                Oh heavens, I’m almost speechless here.

                -------------------------------------

                How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

                It doesn’t. I think Dogen decides which side a person is on. The machine is just there to provide a “scientific” credence to the procedure

                What really saved Sayid's life?

                The healing powers of the fairy fountain. No clue.

                What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                He was taking the money, and possibly the watch, to Keamy as payment from Sun’s father. The money was confiscated at the airport in the season premier. When Jin didn’t have the cash, Keamy and crew tied him up and were holding him until they brought Sun there also. They were planning to use him as leverage for Sun to extort more money from her father. Or Jin did have the money and were wanting to leverage his life for more.

                Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

                He’s not allowed because Sayid’s been claimed. The baseball rolling off the table reminded him of the bargain made between him and Jacob.

                Is Dogen really dead?

                Nope. He’ll be back. Sort of resurrected or claimed like Sayid and Ben.

                How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

                Excellent question. No strong opinion on this one. Maybe as temple master he had a special power we haven’t been made aware of yet.

                • 4 votes
                #4 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:44 PM EST
                Steve Watts

                It doesn’t. I think Dogen decides which side a person is on. The machine is just there to provide a “scientific” credence to the procedure

                Interesting thought. If becoming the Temple guardian gives Dogen some kind of power, it's possible he was also given the power to see "inside" people as well.

                Sort of resurrected or claimed like Sayid and Ben.

                The one thing I don't agree with here is that Ben has been claimed. Ben followed Nemesis and played Judas to this particular Christ story, but he's showing sincere regret and horror at what he did. Since then he escaped from Nemesis and hasn't shown any sign of wanting to go back. I think Ben will actually end up on the good side in the end.

                So far, we have Richard, Jack, Hurley, Ilana, Frank, Sun, and Miles firmly in Jacob's camp. Kate and Jin are definite possibilities as well. Nemesis has Sawyer, Claire, Sayid, Cindy, and most of the Temple residents. That leaves Ben as unclaimed, in my opinion at least. Bernard, Rose, and Vincent are all sort of unaccounted for on either side, and I doubt they'll be back. Anyone I'm missing?

                • 6 votes
                #4.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:53 PM EST
                blackwidow1

                Hey Steve,

                I don't think that Ben followed MIB purposely (he didn't know that Locke was MIB at the time he was with him as an adult) nor was he necessarily "claimed" by the same side as Sayid as a child. Since we didn't see Ben's being brought back to life, I don't think we can know for sure. That being said, I think Ben has always been on Jacob's side. Ben, as well as Ilana, Sun, Lapidis et al were left behind on the beach when Flocke went recruiting in the jungle. It seems as if someone has already chosen a side (for either Jacob or MIB) then they can't be recruited for the other side.

                I find it especially interesting that Sun and Jin are on opposite sides at this point. I wonder when/if that will change.

                • 5 votes
                #4.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:02 PM EST
                mearth1961

                blackwidow - maybe when Sun and Jin reunite it will be the end of the battle, balance will have been restored and THEY end up being our mysterious Adam and Eve?

                • 6 votes
                #4.3 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:13 PM EST
                Psybrchick

                Though I want Sun and Jin together, to not do so with their daughter is unfathomable.

                • 2 votes
                #4.4 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:26 PM EST
                BlackRock Steve

                The Big Questions:

                • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

                Agree exactly with Blackwidow's comments!

                • What really saved Sayid's life?

                The fact that he was A Candidate!

                • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                Agree exactly with Blackwidow's comments!

                • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

                He "caught" himself, and his anger and knew that per the rules (as his Japanese comment to Hurley verified) that he could NOT kill him as he is a candidate..."infected" or not.

                • Is Dogen really dead?

                in Body, perhaps, but not his essence...BUT, remember that Jacob was seen"adjusting" the ph balance of his magical healing jacuzzi, and no doubt he was doing that as he "knew" what was coming and would happen to Dogen, so I'm not ready to declare Dogen dead just yet!!

                • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

                He was the "good" balanced against the "evil" becasue of his personal redemption for the death of his son....AND the pact that he made with the "magnificent man"...Who I don't think was Jacob!

                • 5 votes
                #4.5 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:30 PM EST
                Amy-1026029

                I was just getting ready to comment on the same thing Black Rock Steve, Jacob was putting something in the pool when Hurley saw him last episode.

                • 2 votes
                #4.6 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:32 PM EST
                blackwidow1

                Ooooo BRS! You're right! I kinda assumed it was Jacob who visited him in the hospital (since we've seen Jacob off island) but it very well could not have been Jacob. Jacob never offered any of the other candidates a deal did he?

                • 1 vote
                #4.7 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:52 PM EST
                Steve Watts

                AND the pact that he made with the "magnificent man"...Who I don't think was Jacob!

                I'll have to disagree with that one. Dogen says the man was Jacob. Even if Nemesis could take Jacob's form (without him being dead), they've stated over and over again that Nemesis is trapped on the Island. And it would make no sense for Dogen to strike a deal with Nemesis, and for that to give him the power to keep Nemesis out. Or for Nemesis to get Sayid to kill his own man.

                I like the alternative theories, but that one seems way too convoluted, especially since we already have an explanation. Jacob can "revive", at least on the Island, in the pool. He might have that same power off-Island, or brought Dogen's son to the Island to revive him and then took him back. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, as they say.

                • 9 votes
                #4.8 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:58 PM EST
                Inchiki

                BW1,

                I have to disagree about Dogen's deal. It's implied that Nemesis is trapped on the Island, as all he wants to do is go home. And whoever said that Dogen was ever a candidate? Like the flight attendant on Oceanic, you can be brought to the Island, but your role may be minor. And after serving in his role at the Temple for a long time, wouldn't it be apparent if it wasn't the "real" Jacob that brought Dogen to the Island, especially if he was in contact with Richard?

                • 2 votes
                #4.9 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:03 AM EST
                blackwidow1

                Stop, rewind ... I just watched that scene again. Dogen did say the man's name was Jacob.

                • 1 vote
                #4.10 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:06 AM EST
                BlackRock Steve

                Namaste, Blackwidow.....and sorry friends...I am hearing impaired and my hearing aides didn't catch he said Jacob. (Yes I know i could use the "CC" but if you've ever watched a show that way...it's no fun and with a show like Lost...you miss too much of the scene and possible "clues".

                Steve & Inchiki: Why does everyone just assume I meant NemLocke!? I still believe that have been implications in the show that there may be a "third party" in this conflict or game!!

                • 2 votes
                #4.11 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:20 AM EST
                blackwidow1

                Actually when I read your post I thought of Ben and his deal with Juliet that she would remain free from cancer if she stayed on the island. And we know Ben was one of the select few (Richard, Ethan) who were permitted off island to "recruit."

                MIB was not the only entity trapped on the island. Pretty much everyone was trapped on the island once Jacob called them there. I think MIB's message via Sayid that they were all free because of Jacob's death was extremely relevant to this episode and a reminder that these people weren't as free as it seems.

                BRS ... what did you think, if anything, about the song "catch a falling star" being played at the end of the episode while we were seeing the destruction of the temple and Locke and crew walking into the jungle?

                • 1 vote
                #4.12 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:29 AM EST
                BlackRock Steve

                BRS ... what did you think, if anything, about the song "catch a falling star" being played at the end of the episode while we were seeing the destruction of the temple and Locke and crew walking into the jungle?

                We were always told that the "Temple" was a place of sanctuary and Dogen was the Temple Master....but now that I have heard Dogen's sad tale of why/how he was there...and if you look at how the temple was made and laid out...was it "sanctuary" or more of a "prison"...as in a place of purgatory....Is Locke really evil or more of an "emancipator"? Also, knowing that C & L are great die-hard Star Wars fans...is it me or did the death of Dogen remind anyone of Obi-Wan Kanobi's death....and now I expect to see his hologram the rest of the way!!?...was he the 'catch a falling star' is what I was thinking!?

                • 1 vote
                #4.13 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:55 AM EST
                blackwidow1

                Actually, now that I think about it, Ben wasn't permitted off the island either, was he? He left when he turned the donkey wheel and came back on the Ajira flight. He claimed that he went to be "judged" by the island and hoped to be permitted to stay. He did get to stay for the purpose of killing Jacob.

                • 1 vote
                #4.14 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:16 AM EST
                Inchiki

                BlackRock Steve,

                In regards to #4.11, your point is well taken. Like an old Garanimals ensemble, it explains why Dogen had the dark/light combo going while ostensibly working for one side, Jacob.

                I have also wondered what a third party would be. Not that I have any evidence, but just a preference for maintaining the duality theme, I can only think that a third party would be representatives of the scales/balance. And continuing with the idea of good vs evil or yin/yang, the conflict between the two sides would be eternal. Which makes the scales/balance (possibly) also eternal, or dare I say, a “constant.”

                In fact, I think the Island is the balance (constant) between the two sides, among other things. (I have to credit a poster from last week who (perhaps, jokingly) said that the Island is Jack’s constant which prompted me to continue on this train of thought.) Which is why the destruction of the Island would lead to catastrophes of biblical proportions (cats lying with dogs, etc.).

                The Island is also a constant with time/space. It was the release of energy that brought down Oceanic 815 and gave Desmond the ability to glimpse the future. Desmond eventually came down with a time sickness where he had to find his constant. Likewise, it was the tremendous release of energy at the unfinished Hatch in the 70’s—compounded by a nuclear (or as some say new-cool-ler) device—that resulted in our current situation. But unlike Desmond going back and forth in time, our survivors are going “sideways” in time/space. So I think the Island somehow moderates this energy and keeps time/space from totally coming apart, acting as a constant to the endless possibilities of time/space.

                Uh, sorry about the word diarrhea. I was planning to be in REM stage awhile back, but wanted to concede to your point, Steve. So, fellow posters, I have to apologize to you if I put y'all into a coma-like state. And with that . . . pleasant dreams.

                • 3 votes
                #4.15 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:17 AM EST
                BlackRock Steve

                Then again, is it maybe that we are to ask ourselves: Whose star is falling and whose star is rising??....as in the old Jacob vs NemLocke conflict

                • 1 vote
                #4.16 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:21 AM EST
                Samhill

                I think Kate was allowed to live simply because they've suggested that neither Jacob nor Nemesis are allowed to kill candidates, and she's still a candidate.

                • 3 votes
                #4.17 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:41 AM EST
                Herbcules74

                BRS,

                Reagarding your 4.13 comment.....

                is it me or did the death of Dogen remind anyone of Obi-Wan Kanobi's death....and now I expect to see his hologram the rest of the way!!?...

                I Totally agree. I thought to myself that Dogen died way to easy. In the fight scene in the beginning, to me I thought Dogen kicked Sayid's ass. He should have been able to free himself from Sayid.

                • 1 vote
                #4.18 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:43 AM EST
                AshleyKeen

                Actually I think that seeing Do(n't care)gen in the last episode was our hint that he was just a regular dude. I'm not all that suprised by his death, but I am suprised that the writers think we care...

                • 1 vote
                #4.19 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:44 AM EST
                OnlyChild

                I think Kate was allowed to live simply because they've suggested that neither Jacob nor Nemesis are allowed to kill candidates, and she's still a candidate.

                I wonder - could smokey have killed her if he had found her ? because he seemed to be looking for her. Maybe Smokey isn't exactly Nemesis. Nemesis threw her a dirty look and he is not happy that she is still on the scene. He doesn't want her around Claire? She is an unknown factor? She is not as malleable or vulnerable as Sayid? Suddenly I am interested in Kate again.

                • 2 votes
                #4.20 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:22 PM EST
                Superman2001

                I'm trying not to outthink myself with all these theories. I'm taking what we've been shown/told at face value at this point. We saw Bad Locke as Smokey, and the pop up re-airs have confirmed that he is Smokey. If we see evidence to the contrary, I'm all for it, but for now, Bad Locke = Smokey.

                  #4.21 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:05 PM EST
                  pinkcap

                  The writers have confirmed in interviews that Flocke is smokey.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.22 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:08 PM EST
                  visichy

                  I think Kate was allowed to live simply because they've suggested that neither Jacob nor Nemesis are allowed to kill candidates, and she's still a candidate.

                  Actually, Kate's not a candidate. We haven't seen her name next to any of the numbers in the cave or the lighthouse.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.23 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 4:34 PM EST
                  WhenAmI

                  visichy - I think Kate was shown on the lighthouse as #51. She might not be one of the "numbered" candidates, but she is a candidate.

                    #4.24 - Fri Mar 5, 2010 2:24 AM EST
                    chiclet024

                    Anybody have a screenshot of Kate as lighthouse #51? I'd certianly be interested. I'd be interested in any of the names, beside Jack, in the lighthouse. I was following other happenings in that scene and didn't catch any other names.

                      #4.25 - Sat Mar 6, 2010 5:26 PM EST
                      pinkcap

                      I have paused my dvr and saw the name Austen next to 51. Lostpedia has also confirmed this. They have a list of the names and corresponding numbers that they have been able to view. They also detail where the name was (lighthouse or cave) and who the person could be. Austen could mean Kate or her father. At this point, we're not sure. Here's the link:

                      http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates

                        #4.26 - Sat Mar 6, 2010 10:22 PM EST
                        say what??

                        screenshot from "Lost Addicts Blog"

                        http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D38eBGiDXzQ/S4UPT8uo1UI/AAAAAAAACu8/rh9-vhqCHOI/s1600-h/wheel+more+names+3.jpg

                          #4.27 - Sun Mar 7, 2010 7:58 AM EST
                          Reply
                          ranturn

                          The one thing that stood out for me in this episode was the continual use of the number 2: Kate wants to see Claire and she is given 2 minutes. Nadia asks Sayid when the kids went to bed and he tells her 2 hours ago. Miles tells Sayid he was dead for 2 hours.

                          Spiritual Meaning:

                          Two: The symbolic meaning of number Two is kindness, balance, tact, equalization, and duality. The number Two reflects a quiet power of judgment, and the need for planning. Two beckons us to choose. The spiritual meaning of number Two also deals with exchanges made with others, partnerships (both in harmony and rivalry), and communication. Two urges us out of our indecision, calls us to unite with like-minds, and like-ideals. Two asks us to exert our natural flow of judgment to do what is best for our souls.

                          The Significance of The Number Two: By Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)

                          The second letter of the Hebrew alef-bet,, mirrors the symbolism of the number two. It is called Bet. It is from this letter that we get our word, both. This letter is the first letter of the Torah and of the book of Bere@!$%# (Genesis). Like the number two, Bet stands for the beginning of man’s journey.

                          Themes for tonight’s episode: Man’s journey – Jacob’s and MIB. Partnerships made. Unite with like-minds.

                          And once again, we saw a character’s actions in the sideways world mimic the actions on the island. Sayid was pretty powerful tonight and even though I feel the loss of such a wonderful character, the look of peacefulness that was on his face as he was walking towards Locke was priceless.

                          But Kate! Who knew she would go over to the dark side? Or did she?

                          My favorite line tonight was of course from Miles when telling Kate that the Aussie girl was at the temple: “Strolled in here, acting all weird. Still hot though.”

                          At the point when Dogen explained his story to Sayid, I felt so sorry for both of them. But who attacked who? It happened so fast, I didn’t catch it.

                          And now we know the significance of the Omega symbol. Which only leads me to the question I asked a few weeks ago, how is it that Ilana knows so much?

                          • 7 votes
                          Reply#5 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:47 PM EST
                          BlackRock Steve

                          And now we know the significance of the Omega symbol. Which only leads me to the question I asked a few weeks ago, how is it that Ilana knows so much

                          She is a graduate, magna cum laude, of the "special school" for the "recruited" gifted children that Richard once tested Locke for.....and then tried to get Locke to go to via his chemistry or math teacher (I can't remember which)!!! aka...the 'Templar Knights' school for Jacob or ??

                          • 3 votes
                          #5.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:58 PM EST
                          pinkcap

                          ranturn

                          Great observation on the number 2. Thanks for the info. You forgot one more number 2 - there are two sides for the people in the temple to choose.

                          I don't think Kate has taken a side. I think she doesn't realize that Flocke is not the real John Locke. I think she's a bit stunned to see that he's alive. She's just going with people she thinks she can trust.

                          Miles' line was great - if we can't have Hurley, he makes a great substitute.

                          I think that Ilana is Jacob's child. She knows too much.

                          • 2 votes
                          #5.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:29 PM EST
                          Reply
                          blackwidow1

                          Question - Where's Richard? I would have thought he'd have had time to return to the temple by now?

                          • 5 votes
                          Reply#6 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:49 PM EST
                          ranturn

                          Did I miss something? When did Ilana and crew get to the temple? Was that just implied? I was wondering the same thing blackwidow 1. Where is Richard? But also, Where is Jin? Where is Sawyer?

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:53 PM EST
                          BlackRock Steve

                          Remember that Richard is "The Advisor"....as such, don't you think he knows when to avoid a showdown when he knows it's coming?....especially now that they showed him to be scared sxxxless in the other episode of Unlocke....not exactly a Captain Courageous type!!

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:02 PM EST
                          NCL70506

                          ranturn - Ilana did get to the Temple with Frank, Sun, and Ben once the chaos began. They met up with Miles, who told Sun that her husband was there yesterday. Ilana located a doorway to a hidden room or exit, and she led them into it for safety.

                          I was also wondering where Jin, Sawyer, and Richard were. The last time we saw Jin, he was injured and basically at the mercy of Nemesis and Claire. I am hoping that they left Jin at Claire's "living area" and went on to take care of their business at the Temple. Maybe Nemesis did not see Jin as an asset or a threat because of his injury, and decided to leave him behind, for now. The last time we saw Sawyer, he accepted the option from Nemesis to leave the Island. Maybe Sawyer is waiting for Nemesis and the rest of that group at the rendezvous point to supposedly leave the Island.

                          I found it really strange that Richard was not at the Temple. The last time we saw him, he was terrified from his encounter with Nemesis and was trying to convince Sawyer to go to the Temple. Richard knows the Temple is the last safe place on the Island, so what is he doing?? I don't know if he could have done anything to actually help, but he should have been there.

                          • 2 votes
                          #6.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:29 AM EST
                          sweetpeas2ds

                          Maybe touching up his eyeliner?

                          I wondered that too. Especially since when we saw him approach Sawyer he was in quite a hurry to get to the temple.

                          • 2 votes
                          #6.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:47 AM EST
                          Anjillina

                          I wondered the same thing NCL70506 - where were Jin and Sawyer anyway (I think Richard was between Nemesis and the Temple and just hid when he couldn't make it there before Nemesis and crew). But Kate actually whined to Nemesis "why can't Jin or Sawyer do it" when he told her that she had to go into the Temple. So that implies that they are nearby.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:02 AM EST
                          Anjillina

                          Argh - not Kate - Claire. When Nemesis tells Claire to go in the Temple.

                            #6.6 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:37 AM EST
                            kcjhawk

                            Richard may not go to the temple himself, because even though he hates Nemesis, he has to admit that Jacob didn't tell him a lot of stuff. Maybe he doesn't know who to trust OR Jacob has been communicating with him (just not talking about candidates) and Richard has a special job to do. What I don't get is if Richard doesn't know about the candidates, what was he doing giving Locke tests off island when Locke was little?

                              #6.7 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:29 PM EST
                              kcjhawk

                              Jacob can "revive", at least on the Island, in the pool. He might have that same power off-Island, or brought Dogen's son to the Island to revive him and then took him back.

                              Steve: I agree. Does anyone else think it was Jacob's healing touch that kept John Locke from dying after he went out the window? It seems improbable that he would have only been injured if he was thrown from that height. That would show that Jacob could revive off island.

                              • 1 vote
                              #6.8 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:29 PM EST
                              Redchilipepper

                              kcjhawk, I agree that Jacob revived lock. I thought the scene after he gets pushed from the window that he actually dies and then Jacob is sitting on the bench reading. He comes over, kneels over Locke and touches him. In that instant he starts breathing again. So I think he can 'revive'.

                              Also on the Richard questions, I was wondering where he was but figured he is all too familiar with the island and the games these forces play so he stayed back because he knew what was going to happen and didn't want to be killed with the rest of the people in the temple. I was mostly concerned with where Sawyer is, because he was with Unlocke last we saw him, they were in the cave. and then poof, no Sawyer this week.

                                #6.9 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:53 PM EST
                                pinkcap

                                I agree about Jacob reviving Locke after the fall from the window. The enhanced episode even hinted at that possibility. I also think that Jacob healed Ilana's wounds. If you remember, she was in a hospital with burns. Her face was covered with bandages. Her face looks good for someone who suffered burns.

                                  #6.10 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:00 PM EST
                                  T Bourlon

                                  Why isn't Richard at the temple? Don't you remember the fireworks they fired when they found out Jacob was dead? That was probably some kind of warning to stay away, that they wouldn't open the "gate" for anyone. But then again, there's that "secret" passage....

                                    #6.11 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 5:54 PM EST
                                    Reply
                                    Aqualeo

                                    A slow episode at first...until all the killing started...

                                    Cheers:

                                    • Crazy Claire is still awesome. It's too bad she is evil
                                    • Miles was Hurley in the episode. Anything he says is great.
                                    • Sayid Kicking ass is always awesome. Even if he is evil too.

                                    Jeers:

                                    • The fight that Dogen and Sayid had in the beginning was a little dumb. And it went nowwhere
                                    • All the drama in Sayid's Flashsideways. I didn't really like it. But him almost crying on the island talking to MIB made up for it.

                                    The Big Questions:

                                    • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?
                                    • Island magic. We don't really need to know. It just does what is does.
                                    • What really saved Sayid's life?
                                    • MIB somehow
                                    • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?
                                    • We will find out in Jin's Flashsideways
                                    • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?
                                    • I don't think Jacob allows him to. Maybe the island doesn't allow him to. It might be against the rules
                                    • Is Dogen really dead?
                                    • Yes because Smokey got to kill everyone
                                    • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?
                                    • I think Jacob gave him this power somehow.
                                    • 1 vote
                                    Reply#7 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 10:58 PM EST
                                    mearth1961

                                    How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

                                    Not sure - but I recall a theory I read somewhere that compared evil/good concept to positive/negative energies in science. You can't have one without the other. If evil has a negative charge and goodness has a positive charge then the machine measured the energy levels to determine which was dominant?

                                    What really saved Sayid's life?

                                    I suspect that because of Sayid's past he was already tainted and since the waters were not clear (Jacob's death corrupted the water?) that the "infection" of evil restored him.

                                    What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                                    He was suppose to deliver the cash in his luggage to Keamy and when he showed up with just the watch and no moolah, Keamy decided to 'ice him'? hehehehe

                                    Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

                                    He certainly seemed intent on it when he was kicking Sayid's butt in the Temple, but the dropping ball made him halt. I suspect that the agreement he made to save his son's life, was that he take this job on the Island and that he not break the guidelines of whatever the job decription entails? He was afraid that if he killed Sayid, he might be breaking one of the rules and his son would no longer be safe? Sayid's name was on "the list" from Jacob and so potentially MIGHT be someone that Dogen couldn't kill. And he seemed to always delegate the killing to be done by the underlings.

                                    Is Dogen really dead?

                                    Sadly, I believe he his. Bummer. I thought he was cool. Who will be HIS replacement to work for the new Jacob?

                                    How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

                                    Since Dogen was specifically 'hired' by Jacob, he probably knew enough secrets and tricks to keep him at the walls....or it's once of the rules we haven't quite figured out yet?

                                    Jeers:

                                    Bummed that Sayid went completely over to the dark side (and I have no doubts that UnLocke is EVIL)but I LOVED the look on Ben's face when HE realized it!

                                    No Claire/Kate deathmatch - oh and btw, Claire, not looking very hard for your baby now that your out of the hole, you crazy biatch!

                                    Cheers: Miles didn't die! Yippee!!!!

                                    Question: Where is Sawyer?

                                    • 3 votes
                                    Reply#8 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:06 PM EST
                                    Inchiki

                                    Now we're moving! Farewell to Dogen as he was an honourable man, though, of course I'm not ruling out a return. (For example, as part of another reference to Star Wars, Jacob and Dogen can be wraithlike appearances to Hurley and other candidates, similar to the (ghostly) images of Anakin and Obi-wan to Luke in the Return of the Jedi.) And who would have thought that Dogen would take down Sayid!!

                                    Is the morale of the episode that selfish actions brings about ruin? Sayid and Claire are trying to fulfill their own dreams and Locke has them ensnared by it. As others have hinted, maybe Jack learns to let go, and not try to "fix" every thing, thereby saving the day.

                                    Oh well, on to the questions.

                                    • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?
                                    • What really saved Sayid's life? The murkiness of the water, representing Smoke, is what re-animated Sayid.
                                    • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge? Just chillin’. . . c'mon guys, you were all thinking it. Okay, delivering the watch does seem the be the right answer to this question.
                                    • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself? The baseball dropping to the ground reminded Dogen of the promise he made to follow Jacob’s orders. Part of the orders were that the candidates not be harmed.
                                    • Is Dogen really dead? Yes, his part of the story is over.
                                    • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out? Maybe it’s more about the pool being polluted with blood. And why was Lemmon asking if Sayid knew what he did? Nothings been explained to them, so why would the Other expect them to know anything?
                                    • 2 votes
                                    Reply#9 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:11 PM EST
                                    ranturn

                                    What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                                    Inchiki: Just chillin' - Love it! Did you catch the lettuce that was on the shelf in the background? I half expected Sayid to say to Jin, "Lettuce talk!" (I know, it is getting late and I am tired!)

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:21 PM EST
                                    Reply
                                    pinkcap

                                    Wow! Tough questions this week. I think the episode was good in that I think we do know that the Nemesis is evil. Maybe at one time he wasn't as evil as he appears to be now. If he was trapped, the anger he felt made him more angry and more powerful if unleashed (shades of Star Wars and Anakin becoming darker when he became angry).

                                    Speaking of Star Wars, I found some parallels here. I have to give credit to my son for one of these. FLocke said to Sayid, "you can have anything you want." My son told me that is what Senator Palpatine said to Anakin to convince him to join the dark side. I also remember that when all the jedi knights were killed, the balance in the universe shifted and the dark side took over. This whole killing in the temple reminded me of the killing of all the young jedi knights.

                                    We have talked about the yin/yand concept in this show. Yin and yang are opposites. The white side has a black dot, the black side has a white dot. They need each other to exist, but what happens when the other one is gone. In Star Wars, the bad took over, but there still was a bit of good in the universe - it didn't go away, it just became smaller. Eventually that white dot in Darth Vader was able to rise to the surface to kill the emperor and restore balance in the universe.

                                    Did anyone else notice that Sayid passed Jack in the hospital?

                                    How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul? No clue.

                                    What really saved Sayid's life? Something was able to enter his body. I'm thinking it happened while he was dead. There could be another dark force on the island that can walk over the ash. Claire could walk over it, but FLocke could not.

                                    What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?I'm thinking that he doubled crossed Mr. Paik or that he took a loan from Keamy to break free of Mr. Paik and Keamy's collecting.

                                    Why didn'tDogen kill Sayid himself? Free choice. There are rules about who can kill who on this island.

                                    Is Dogen really dead? I think so.

                                    How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out? No clue.

                                    I can't help but to notice the parallels in Sayid's life. In both worlds, he could never be with Nadia. It was never meant to be.

                                    • 6 votes
                                    Reply#10 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:16 PM EST
                                    Inchiki

                                    This is kinda response to Steve (#4.1), too. One possible way this will resolve is for the balance to be restored as a candidate will be chosen to take Jacob's place. Bernard and Rose are the embodiment of this balance, so they will be on the sidelines. (I was never more struck by the symbolism of Rose being dark and Bernard light than after seeing the stones on the balance in the cave.) Remember that sarcastic remark that Rose made about how they, humanity, are always fighting?

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:35 PM EST
                                    BlackRock Steve

                                    Did anyone else notice that Sayid passed Jack in the hospital?

                                    You bet....and I think we were also supposed to notice that Jack was staring at him with that "Deja Vous" look of "Do I know that guy from somewhere??"

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.2 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:55 PM EST
                                    ranturn

                                    Wow. Totally missed that. This is why I love this board. Because different people catch different things from each episode and the insights are always so thought provoking. Plus, everyone here on Newsvine is always so nice, even if you disagree.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #10.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:24 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    Herbcules74

                                    I'm at a loss for words. It feels like the picture is getting a little clearer and the sides are being drawn.

                                    Observations and thoughts:

                                    When Dogen explains to Sayid the scale of good and evil he holds up the hand without the glove as good and the hand with the black glove on it as evil.

                                    If Dogen's son died when he was 12 and in the other timeline Dogen's son looks to be about 14 in 2004 does that mean that Dogen has only been on the Island since 2002?

                                    When Sayid stabs Nemesis (unLocke) did any one notice there was no blood on the knife when Nemesis withdrew it from his chest.

                                    Questions:

                                    • How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

                                    Maybe by how loudly a person screams when electrocuted....I have no clue.

                                    • What really saved Sayid's life?

                                    Nemesis

                                    • What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                                    I'm guessing that Sun's Dad Mr. Paik sent Jin to give the watch to either Keamy or Keamy's boss. I bet airport security confiscated it so Jin had nothing to give him. Maybe they were holding Jin and they sent Sun to go get the watch.

                                    • Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

                                    I think this comes back to the "rules" of the game. Just like Nemesis couldn't kill Jacob directly. I think Jacob told Dogen that he would bring his son back to life if Dogen did his bidding on the Island and played by the "rules" I think Dogen believes that if he breaks the rules that his son will be killed again. That's why when he saw the baseball fall on the floor he stopped fighting and told Sayid to get out.

                                    • Is Dogen really dead?

                                    Yes I think he is.

                                    • How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

                                    I find it interesting that it was Dogen, and not the ash ring that was really keeping Nemesis out. I have a weird theory on this and this one is totally off the wall. For some reason I feel like Dogen was a living balance between Jacob and Nemesis. That's why he was wearing both white and black. I think that as long as Dogen lived at the temple it was neutral ground. Once we was dead the temple was no longer off limits. I have no idea where I came up with this. Maybe it's just sleep deprivation. I'll probably read this tomorrow and think I was nuts.

                                    I find it interesting that Nemesis/Smokey didn't kill Kate. At the end when she walks out with Miles and Sayid he looks at her and then ignores her. It almost feels like Kate just isn't that important to either side.

                                    It looks to me like Sayid has passed the point of no return. He is now totally with Nemesis. He seems to come to the realization that he can't fight who he is in both realities.

                                    Herb

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#11 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:39 PM EST
                                    blackwidow1

                                    Hey there Herb!

                                    You are not nuts. I think the idea of Dogen being a living balance between Jacob and MIB is a really insightful theory and one that BlackRock Steve alluded to last week when he was questioning Dogen's black on white outfit.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #11.1 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:48 PM EST
                                    BlackRock Steve

                                    Hey Herb,

                                    Dogen was the Temple "Master"....think of him as the "scale"...it was his role to be the "balance" between good and evil or between Jacob and NemLocke....I do NOT think, however, that it was for sure Jacob who offered him the pact after the death of his son.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #11.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:09 AM EST
                                    Herbcules74

                                    Thanks Blackwidow and BRS. I feel like I'm in good company now so I don't feel as nuts. I'm really going to miss this message board as much as I'm going to miss the show when this is all over. We are all going to have to find a new show to debate. Alas, I don't think we are ever going to see aother show like lost.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #11.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:14 AM EST
                                    Big and Rich

                                    I'm pretty sure smoke doesn't bleed when you stab it. ;)

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #11.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:46 AM EST
                                    ranturn

                                    For some reason I feel like Dogen was a living balance between Jacob and Nemesis.

                                    Herbcules 74: Very perspective. I like that line - a living balance.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #11.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:31 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    pinkcap

                                    When Sayid stabs Nemesis (unLocke) did any one notice there was no blood on the knife when Nemesis withdrew it from his chest.

                                    I did notice that. I also noticed that Sayid did not follow Dogen's instructions. He was supposed to stab the Nemesis with the knife before he could talk. The Nemesis said hello to Sayid, then he stabbed him with the dagger.

                                    He seems to come to the realization that he can't fight who he is in both realities.

                                    That's exactly it. The writers have said we will see connections between the two worlds.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    Reply#12 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:46 PM EST
                                    Psybrchick

                                    6 down, 12 to go … great episode … too bad that Sayid let the bad get to him …

                                    How does the machine test for the "balance" of a person's soul?

                                    Can’t figure that one out yet.

                                    What really saved Sayid's life?

                                    Somehow Nemesis was able to access the evil in Sayid’s soul, made worse by his actions for Ben in the three years he was off the island. And perhaps because of Jacob’s “touch”, the water revived him. Or not …

                                    What was Jin doing in Keamy's fridge?

                                    The cash that Jin had at the airport was supposed to be for Keamy, but was confiscated, and Keamy just wasn’t happy with a really cool watch.

                                    Why didn't Dogen kill Sayid himself?

                                    To keep his own soul pure, but also perhaps once again Sayid’s life is protected on the island by Jacob’s “touch”.

                                    Is Dogen really dead?

                                    Not sure, but am leaning towards no. Depending on which side “wins” this battle, those who remained loyal to Jacob and the Light will be rewarded.

                                    How was Dogen the one keeping Nemesis out?

                                    Just like Richard’s agelessness, Jacob made him that way. Perhaps he created the particular ash that was surrounding the castle, and it loses all it’s power when he died.

                                    Ok now that we have that out of the way …. WHOA!!! No answers once again, but at least they have quit promising them. First of all, I really hope that everything comes out ok for Miles, as he is quickly becoming Hugo-rific in his lines and attitude. Glad that Alana, Sun, Lapidus and Ben FINALLY got to the temple, and that they are currently safe.

                                    Now for the OTHER big questions … where are Richard, Sawyer and Jin? I don’t necessarily believe that Sawyer has turned bad, but I don’t believe for a minute that Jin has. And now that Kate has ended up with the Dark Crowd, perhaps she will be able to re-recruit Sawyer to the light? And if the Light Crows wins this epic battle, is there a chance for redemption for Sayid and Claire?

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#13 - Tue Mar 2, 2010 11:52 PM EST
                                    kcjhawk

                                    I don't necessarily buy that Kate will go towards the light. As someone posted, Sayid & Claire had selfish motives and were turned by the promises of Nemesis. Kate has done some good things, but almost no one is all bad. And a lot of the good things she does are because of how they affect her. For example, she wants Aaron with Claire because she (Kate) knows what it is like to have a bad childhood--but at first she really wanted him for herself. She wanted Sawyer to help her, so went after him and was stunned that she couldn't manipulate him anymore. I just don't think we should count her in as good yet.

                                      #13.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:01 AM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Big and Rich

                                      Good points all around. And now, my biggest cheer of the night:

                                      This is Miles' response when Kate asked about Claire being in the Temple

                                      Miles: "Yeah, she's here somewhere. She was kinda acting weird...but still HOT."

                                      BEST LINE OF THE NIGHT

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#14 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:11 AM EST
                                      Herbcules74

                                      I have another answer as to why Jin was in Keamy's fridge. I don't remeber what season it was in but I do remember when Jin and Sun were reconciling after an argument Sun admits to Jin that she was going to leave him and Jin tells Sun that once he deliverd the watch for her father that he was planning on taking her and staying in America because he didn't like who he had become. In the season premier when the security guards found all that money in Jin's bag I assumed it was money he brought so he and Sun could run away together. What if he stole that money from Mr. Paik. Maybe Keamy had an inside man in airport security and he called Keamy and told him about the money. Keamy then called Mr. Paik and Paik told him to hold Jin.

                                      • 6 votes
                                      Reply#15 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:28 AM EST
                                      OnlyChild

                                      Also, was there not a scene in the Sidney airport where some minion of Paik's threatened JIn? Sorry if I am wrong here. Unlike most of you, I have watched each episode only once, except for catching an occasional rerun late at night.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:03 PM EST
                                      Superman2001

                                      Jin was confronted by one of Paik's guys, apparently an American, in the bathroom in the Sydney airport and told to do his job, don't try to run away, or else.

                                        #15.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:08 PM EST
                                        Reply
                                        Chris Tontimonia

                                        I thought this was the best episode so far this season, also no one has caught the line where Sayid says he wants the one who died in his arms, so he is going to be tricked and Nemesis will give him Shannon back not Nadia when you make deals with bad dudes get stuff in writing, i cant believe no one caught that yet, I dont think Nadia died in his arms as she was flattened, but i cant rememeber

                                        • 13 votes
                                        Reply#16 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:02 AM EST
                                        JohnBoy813

                                        Chris, I like that idea especially since we never heard the dialog I want Nadia back. He made have forgotten that Shannon was in his arms when she died. It's like the ally bank commercials, "You never said I could have a real pony", "Well, you never asked".

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #16.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:26 PM EST
                                        kmnecole

                                        I like that- great catch. I always assumed Nadia- especially with the flash-sideways- but Shannon is the one that he was holding when she died on island. Maybe we'll see Shannon back yet

                                          #16.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:14 PM EST
                                          T Bourlon

                                          Yeah, but it's doubtful because Maggie Grace seems to have gone on to bigger and better things - like movies. Still, who knows? I think Sayid meant Nadia, and I think he WILL get her back, like in the sideways flash. She'll be back but not really "his."

                                            #16.3 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 12:32 PM EST
                                            pinkcap

                                            Maggie Grace will be back to reprise her role as Shannon.

                                              #16.4 - Mon Mar 8, 2010 8:54 AM EST
                                              Reply
                                              Chris Tontimonia

                                              Excellent point Herbcules and what about the meeting between Sun and Charles Widmore we still havent found out about that yet

                                              • 2 votes
                                              Reply#17 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:04 AM EST
                                              ranturn

                                              If Jacob really did appear to Dogen and struck the deal with him, he had Dogen make a choice. And being a father, he would choose to have his son live even though he would never see him again. Something caused Claire to leave her son in the jungle and follow her father. Was this Jacob in Christian's body? Did he intervene in some way and have her make a choice too? This bothers me that Jacob would go to such extreme measures.

                                              It really seems that he will do whatever it takes to win this game. Did he cause Dogen's son to die thus setting the stage for Dogen's choice? Did he cause that bus to hit Nadia? Thus setting the stage for Sayid's choices?

                                              And the boomerang toy that Sayid gave to his nephew. Pretty symbolic. Everyone wants to return to something. Nemesis to his home. Locke to walking again. Claire to her son. Jin to Sun. The list is endless.

                                              • 9 votes
                                              Reply#18 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:14 AM EST
                                              blackwidow1

                                              Yes, yes and yes. It seems as if Claire has always been looked down upon for leaving Aaron to go off with Christian. If I was stuck on an island where there were smoke monsters, Keamy's crew blowing up houses, or just stuck on an island and then given the choice to let my son be raised apart from me but in relative safety ... you can bet I would do the same as would most parents. My life for his. Its a sacrifice that a parent would make every day and twice on Sunday. I think Jacob was very much involved in the bus hitting Nadia just as the bus hit Juliet's ex-husband which removed an obstacle between Juliet and the island. Jacob's been not just giving these people little "nudges" ... he's been guding their paths to lead them to the island. And once he gets them there, he doesn't let them go.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #18.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:26 AM EST
                                              BlackRock Steve

                                              AMEN, BW1, AND THANK YOU....I have been ready to go ballistic (and still may) at that caption in the "Enhanced" episode about "nudged"!!!!

                                              If anyone thinks being "nudged" by Jacob is good and = "touched by an angel" then I suggest they re-watch episodes past....hurling a meteor down on Hurley's Mr. Cluck, killing Nadia, and I could go on, but all the losties were "had" by Jacob big time, just as Unlocke described.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #18.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:39 AM EST
                                              NCL70506

                                              For a while now, I wanted to believe that Jacob was all good, but the things the three of you have described above has convinced me that it's not that "black and white." Jacob has done some terrible things to get people to the Island. It seems like he wants to get as many people there that he can, but then he does not always look out for them once they are there.

                                              In last week's episode, Jacob told Hurley that he had to get Jack and him away from the Temple because someone bad was going there. I was not surprised that Hurley immediately wanted to go back and help them; that's the kind of guy Hurley is and why he is so lovable. What did surprise me was Jacob's immediate response of no, we are not going to help them; he used an excuse that there was not enough time. I don't buy it. There were numerous people at the Temple and they were on Jacob's side, but he just left them for Nemesis to kill or recruit. Is Jacob only relying on Hurley and Jack now?

                                              I don't recall Jacob making any deals with the Losties like the deal he made with Dogen. I wonder why Dogen was different. With the chosen Losties, Jacob had a very brief encounter with each one, where he did most if not all of the talking.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #18.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:00 AM EST
                                              pinkcap

                                              I think the difference between Jacob and Nemesis is that Jacob may do things that are horrible, but he does them for the ultimate good of the island and humankind. Jacob believes that to save the world, some sacrifices need to be made. The sacrifice of the few for the good of the many. It's how people justify war. When the Nemsis does anything, good or bad, he's doing it for his own purposes. Yes, he let Sayid live, but that was only so he could kill Dogen.

                                              The whole thing is very yin/yang. The white side has a black spot - this is Jacob. He is mostly good, but has some bad in him. The black side has a white spot - this is the nemesis. He is mostly bad, but I think somewhere down deep, there is good in him. He's not totally evil, no one really is. We're all shades of gray.

                                              I have to agree about Claire sacrificing her own freedom for her baby's. I'm not sure if it was Jacob manipulating her to do this. The writers confirmed that the nemesis has been using Christian's body. If there is a darkness in Claire, chances are it happened after the explosion of the bungalow. We've seen the nemesis make deals too - he made a deal with Sayid to grant him his heart's desire. He made a deal with Claire about the baby, but then told her that the Others had stolen the baby and he(the nemesis) was not able to keep his promise of keeping Aaron safe. She is under the belief that the baby is in the temple. When the darkness first entered Claire and Sayid, they were still the same. I think the darkness at first festers, but eventually grows and takes over the entire person when something makes them angry. I said before that it is similar to the way the emperor in Star Wars was able to turn Anakin to his side. He would suggest things to him to make him angry. That anger would help him find his dark side.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              #18.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:57 AM EST
                                              blackwidow1

                                              Hey pinkcap,

                                              Respectfully, I think Jacob's doing things for his own purpose also whether it be to protect the island or to prove himself right/MIB wrong. I highly doubt that either of these entities - Jacob or MIB - are doing anything for the good of mankind at large. I completely agree with you that no one is all good or all bad, its all shades of grey and a matter of perspective.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #18.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:32 AM EST
                                              Anjillina

                                              I agree with PinkCap. I still think Jacob is good. Jacob's interactions remind me of a story I heard once about Jesus and some dude being on Earth and staying with this old poor couple. They let these two strangers (Jesus and the dude) stay with them and fed them and everything. During the night their only cow and only horse die. As Jesus and the dude are leaving, the dude is yelling at Jesus "how could you kill their cow and horse and they were so good to us and such nice people." Jesus explains that Evil (or Satan or whatever you prefer) came in the night to kill the two old people. He (Jesus) was able to deflect the evil to just take the cow and horse. Things that seem bad aren't always bad. Things that seem good aren't always good. Only time shows what's what. For instance, when Jacob appeared to "let" Nadia get squashed in front of Sayid, maybe Nemesis (or whoever) was trying to squash both of them and Jacob saved Sayid. When he gave Sawyer the pen, maybe Nemesis had already almost utterly destroyed Sawyer's universe. And maybe Jacob giving him the pen gave him an outlet for his sorrow and rage and allowed him to use that to find a reason to live (rather than kill himself).

                                              • 5 votes
                                              #18.6 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:47 AM EST
                                              pinkcap

                                              I'm not saying that Jacob is right to do what he's doing. I think he believes he's doing it for a greater good. I remember reading a spoiler somewhere that said the island does serve a purpose. What that purpose is, who knows? I"m not ruling out the possibility that Jacob is doing this to prove himself right, but I don't think that the nemesis at this point is good. Maybe he will turn good at the end. That would be ironic, wouldn't it? The nemesis realizes his errors, sees what Jacob has always wanted him to see, and the good in him takes over and he stays to protect the island.

                                                #18.7 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:54 AM EST
                                                blackwidow1

                                                What if neither one of them are good in the traditional sense? What if, in the end, we see that this has just been two men using the lives of a whole lot of people to try to prove themselves right/other one wrong? What if it is the variables - the Losties we know and love despite their flaws - that contain the real "good" in this entire scenario and who will rise up at the end to converge into one and destroy both of these men for the good of the island/humankind at large?

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #18.8 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:08 AM EST
                                                pinkcap

                                                Anjillina... I"ve heard that story before. That is a great analogy! I remember hearing that God doesn't send bad things to you, it's satan that does. God gives you what you need to survive. He gives us free will and he gives satan free will.

                                                A couple of weeks ago, Black Widow suggested reading Paradise Lost for some insights into Lost. Paradise Lost is the story of the fall of satan and Adam and Eve's sin. I tried to reach way into the back recesses of my mind to remember the details. When that attempt failed, I checked the book out of the library. Thank you BW. In it, God foresees Satan tempting Eve and thus releasing sin and death on humankind. The angel Raphael takes Adam on a tour of the future to see that their actions will not condemn humankind because God's Son offers his own life to save them. God knew what was going to happen and didn't stop it because he gives us free will. He didn't release sin into the world, Satan did. He sent people like Moses and Noah to help his people until his Son arrived.

                                                There is another interesting parallel between this book and the story. Satan entered the body of a sleeping serpent to talk to Eve. As punishment, whenever Satan is on earth, he must always take the form of a serpent just as the nemesis must take the form of Locke.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #18.9 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:14 AM EST
                                                pinkcap

                                                What if neither one of them are good in the traditional sense? What if, in the end, we see that this has just been two men using the lives of a whole lot of people to try to prove themselves right/other one wrong? What if it is the variables - the Losties we know and love despite their flaws - that contain the real "good" in this entire scenario and who will rise up at the end to converge into one and destroy both of these men for the good of the island/humankind at large?

                                                Well, if Jacob and Nemesis are just trying to prove themselves right, then I hope the Losties do converge and destroy them both.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #18.10 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:19 AM EST
                                                Anjillina

                                                blackwidow1 - UGH - I hope not. If Jacob and Nemesis are just two freaks toying with mankind, it will ruin the whole show for me. I just really don't get a mean vibe from Jacob looking at the things he has done and the way he has done them. I mean the things that we are CERTAIN he was involved with. (there are a whole lot of occurances on the island that haven't yet been concretely tied to either party). But the things we've been shown that Jacob was definitely involved with or touched in same way - I don't see any evil or harmful intent in anything he's done. Unlike Nemesis. Who strikes me as a selfish jerk with victim mentality. A spoiled kindergarten child who unfortunately morphed into a killing machine. A whiner who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants. Jerk. I hate people like that and I hate super-Beings like that even more - lol.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #18.11 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:14 AM EST
                                                Sabastian Palpatine

                                                "Well, if Jacob and Nemesis are just trying to prove themselves right, then I hope the Losties do converge and destroy them both."

                                                It would be so...Clash of the Titans. Although with Sayid aligned with The Monster, I'm not sure that Jack and Hurley would have much of a chance :(

                                                  #18.12 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:41 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                  Long time, first time! LOVE this group, you guys make the show 10x more fun to watch!! Big ups to Mr. Watts and several "Others" (wah waaaah) who always bring something to the table, you know who you are!

                                                  Anyway salutations aside, I have the "Weird LOST Moment of the Night" right here (and in my speed-scrolling didn't see anyone had posted it yet): did ya notice that the license plate on the vehicle in Nadia's driveway had the same number as Jack's old Bronco: 2SAQ321??? Might wanna double check this but I swear I saw it like that!!

                                                  How is that even possible? I mean, I knew California's DMV is screwed up because I live here! But, What The?? I'll have more to post l8r but just had to throw that out there! Now do what you do best and discuss amongst yourselves, I'm getting forclempt!!

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  Reply#19 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:55 AM EST
                                                  blackwidow1

                                                  BRS - you are more than welcome ... I think the one that really clinched it for me was when he went and gave little Sawyer that pen so he could finish his letter to "Mr. Sawyer." As his uncle said, what was done was done, the child needed to grieve and move on. That letter allowed him to hold onto that anger for a lifetime. That was just cruel.

                                                  Eeek ... this was in response to #18.2 ... must not have clicked the reply button

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#20 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:01 AM EST
                                                  pinkcap

                                                  As Flo in those Geico commercials says, "happens to me all the time."

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #20.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:11 AM EST
                                                  Anjillina

                                                  blackwidow1 - WOW - you and I are viewing Jacob's actions as total opposite. See my post immediately above on Sawyer and the pen (and I wrote that before I read this post). Eerie.

                                                    #20.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:48 AM EST
                                                    blackwidow1

                                                    Anjillina,

                                                    I noticed that too!

                                                      #20.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:54 AM EST
                                                      Reply
                                                      Steve Watts

                                                      Another random thought. For all of Nemesis' talk of how Jacob took advantage of people during vulnerable times, it seems he's doing the same thing in a lot of ways. So far we've seen him recruit three of our Losties. And each time, he used their backgrounds to influence them in some way. It has been a choice for them, and seemed like a reasonable choice, but only because of their current circumstances.

                                                      Sayid, who hates killing, was tricked into attempting to murder Nemesis. Nemesis showed him mercy and pointed out that people don't trust him in the Temple. This resulted in... Sayid murdering people, but for Nemesis' sake.

                                                      Sawyer just went through a crushing love loss, after staying on the Island specifically because he wanted to be with Juliet. Now that she's gone, he wants nothing more to leave. So what does Nemesis promise? That they'll leave the Island together.

                                                      We're unclear on the details for Claire, but it's a safe bet to say that some promise of Aaron was involved. She did seem awfully convinced that the people inside the Temple had him.

                                                      • 8 votes
                                                      Reply#21 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 2:56 AM EST
                                                      Shaun Guidolin

                                                      every "Lostie" is vulnerable so it's hard not to prey on them ...

                                                        #21.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:29 AM EST
                                                        EsueMalt

                                                        I'm a loyal reader of this site and I have never commented in the past but I have really been thinking about how Lost has so many Biblical references and ties. I am posting this story below because to me it really says what the "devil" does and how he uses people to obtain his own end purpose. Very similar to how I see MIB/Flocke doing this season. Sorry about the story length.

                                                        There was a little boy visiting his grandparents on their farm. He was given a slingshot to play with out in the woods. He practiced in the woods, but he could never hit the target. Getting a little discouraged, he headed back for dinner. As he was walking back he saw Grandma's pet duck.

                                                        Just out of impulse, he let the slingshot fly, hit the duck square in the head, and killed it. He was shocked and grieved. In a panic, he hid the dead duck in the wood pile, only to see his sister watching! Sally had seen it all, but she said nothing.

                                                        After lunch the next day Grandma said, "Sally, let's wash the dishes."

                                                        But Sally said, "Grandma, Johnny told me he wanted to help in the kitchen. Then she whispered to him, "Remember the duck? So Johnny did the dishes.

                                                        Later that day, Grandpa asked if the children wanted to go fishing and

                                                        Grandma said, "I'm sorry but I need Sally to help make supper." Sally

                                                        just smiled and said," Well that's all right because Johnny told me he wanted to help." She whispered again, "Remember the duck?" So Sally went fishing and Johnny stayed to help.

                                                        After several days of Johnny doing both his chores and Sally.. he finally couldn't stand it any longer.

                                                        He came to Grandma and confessed that he had killed the duck.

                                                        Grandma knelt down, gave him a hug, and said, "Sweetheart, I know.

                                                        You see, I was standing at the window and I saw the whole thing, but because I love you, I forgave you. I was just wondering how long you would let Sally make a slave of you." (Flocke using Losties past to bring them to his side)

                                                        Thought for the day and every day thereafter?

                                                        Whatever is in your past, whatever you have done... and the devil keeps throwing it up in your face (lying, cheating, debt, fear, bad habits, hatred, anger, bitterness, etc.) ..whatever it is....You need to know that God was standing at the window and He saw the whole thing..... He has seen your whole life. He wants you to know that He loves you and that you are forgiven. (Jacob watching the Losties in the lighthouse glass)

                                                        He's just wondering how long you will let the devil make a slave of you. The great thing about God is that when you ask for forgiveness, He not only forgives you, but He forgets..... It is by God's grace and mercy that we are saved.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #21.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 12:03 PM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                        Folks talk about Kate-hate on here, but I can't stand to see Claire anymore post-Nemesis/Locke. The way she smiled and gazed at the smoke monster going by, and her misinformation about her own son, happily singing to herself down in the hole etc. - YUCK! If she can't be shaken out of her stupor, I sure hope she gets some "just desserts" very soon - and I ain't talking about Apollo bars!

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        Reply#22 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 3:30 AM EST
                                                        kcjhawk

                                                        When she was in the hole grinning, and said "He's coming" to Kate, I swear she looked just like Heath Ledger. My cousin and I watch LOST together (long distance). I had him rewind his DVR and watch it again and he agreed with me. Nothing against Heath, but she creeps me out and THAT HAIR! Ewww!

                                                          #22.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:12 AM EST
                                                          Reply
                                                          WhenAmI

                                                          Hey everyone. I know some of you expressed extreme disappointment in this episode, and I do think it was pretty slow and uneventful for a LOST episode, but some of this stuff may not be important until we are told it is. Like the lighthouse!

                                                          I definitely think that Jacob is good and UnLocke is evil. That was the big reveal here to me. Dogen basically said as much. I think that Jacob is around during critical moments in the Losties lives, I don't think he caused them. Not to mention MIB-masquerading-as-Locke has made it very clear that anyone who doesn't follow him will meet a Smokey end. He is the polar opposite of free will.

                                                          I'm also not sure that Sideways is how things are supposed to be. Mainly because it seems like all of the people "touched" by Jacob were touched at such different times. It would seem that he would have touched them all at roughly the same time to change ALL of their lives for Sideways to be the way it is. He didn't even interact with Jack until much later than he would have had his son. And how did he affect Hurley or Sayid? He didn't talk to them until after they were rescued. So I think pointing the finger at Jacob for the pathways of their lives is a little disingenuous. And fate-wise, it seems like they all cross paths (and quite frequently!) anyway.

                                                          Thoughts:

                                                          I guess Nadia was never intended to be with Sayid. That kinda sucks.

                                                          I think the reason the knife didn't work on UnLocke was because he DID talk to Sayid first. And I'm pretty sure the reason Dogan sent Sayid after him is because you can only be killed by your "people" (like Ben and Jacob).

                                                          Did it seems like there were remnants of Sayid until he talked to Locke? Then, after that, he really "turned" to the dark side. So, maybe they are still salvageable. We saw vestiges of Locke last week too, so I'm holding out hope for our Losties. But, considering what Darlton said about deaths, my money is on Claire and Sayid, becasue we won't be so upset to see them die after they've been all evil-ized.

                                                          I am curious to see how the uninfected Losties on UnLocke's side end up. They seem to be making a deliberate decision to take that side, whereas Sayid and Claire are "infected". I'm pretty sure Kate and Sawyer will have a huge part in the end, being that they are basically infiltrating. UnLocke doesn't seem to think they're a threat, and that may be his mistake in the end.

                                                          It was nice to see Keamy again. I like that guy. Even if he is bad!

                                                          When UnLocke was talking about giving Sayid what he wanted, I kept thinking about the Box that Ben had Locke's father in. Wasn't that supposed to show you your hearts fondest desire too?? Any correlations?

                                                          The titles usually have duel meanings. I get that the Island one was the countdown to Smokey, but what was Sundown Sideways?

                                                          I'm definitely excited (and a little sad) to see where this is all going. And to find out what happened to Sun and Jin at LAX that led to him being in a freezer!

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          Reply#23 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:21 AM EST
                                                          kmnecole

                                                          I thought maybe the reason Sayid couldn't kill FLocke was because FLocke talked first as well- in direct opposition to what Dogen said- don't let him speak

                                                          But we've actually already seen normal methods of killing not work on FLocke- in the cave when he was shot- that didn't work either.

                                                          I think FLocke was correct when he told Sayid that Dogen had sent him on a suicide mission. We already know Dogen wanted Sayid dead- he tried to get Jack to poison him- then instead of killing him after their fight- he had to make due with just banishing him from the Temple.

                                                          But then the opportunity presented itself to have Sayid killed afterall when Claire arrived with FLocke's message. Dogen knew the stabbing wouldn't work- but, he counted on FLocke getting angry and killing Sayid- just like FLocke said.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #23.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:11 PM EST
                                                          Superman2001

                                                          I think Dogen confirmed that he knew Sayid wouldn't be able to kill Bad Locke. Sayid asked him why he's tried on two separate occasions to have someone else kill him, and he didn't deny that that was his intention. I think he expected/hoped that Sayid would get Bad Locke's wrath.

                                                          But I also wondered about the "don't let him speak" rule. When Dogen first said that, I wondered how that would be possible, and was anticipating the customary greeting from Locke: "Hello Sayid." And of course, that's what happened, before Sayid had a chance to stab him. Of course I figured that Dogen's rule was to prevent Bad Locke from manipulating him, and it doesn't make sense that you can kill this guy, but somehow, if you hear this guy speak even one word, you can't kill him. I was sort of confused by that whole set of circumstances, and Dogen's story about Jacob saving his son in return for serving the Island did nothing to clear the matter up for me.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #23.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 5:16 PM EST
                                                          WhenAmI

                                                          Good point Superman, about Dogen's story about his son. That was how he answered Sayid's inquiry about getting other people to kill him. I'm just not entirely sure his lack of answer was an affirmation. Maybe as soon as Sayid came back, Dogen could tell he hadn't completed his task and instead told him a story about the perils of accepting your "greatest wish" from someone. Perhaps some foreshadowing?

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #23.3 - Fri Mar 5, 2010 4:24 AM EST
                                                          pinkcap

                                                          Maybe as soon as Sayid came back, Dogen could tell he hadn't completed his task and instead told him a story about the perils of accepting your "greatest wish" from someone. Perhaps some foreshadowing?

                                                          I never thought of it that way. It always seemed a bit odd that Dogen would tell his story to Sayid at that moment. Sayid asked him why he didn't kill him and he answers him by telling him his story. What you're saying makes sense of that scene.

                                                          I've been thinking about another scene that involves Sayid and Dogen. It occurred in the beginning of the episode. Dogen and Sayid were fighting in Dogen's lab. Dogen was close to killing Sayid, but backed off when the baseball dropped to the floor. I didn't think of it at the time because I didn't know the significance of the baseball, but looking back, the reminder of his son and the sacrifice he made stopped him from killing Sayid. Did the thought of his son stop him from killing or did it make him want to give up and die himself?

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #23.4 - Fri Mar 5, 2010 9:02 AM EST
                                                          Pfemm

                                                          the reminder of his son and the sacrifice he made stopped him from killing Sayid. Did the thought of his son stop him from killing or did it make him want to give up and die himself?

                                                          What if it was more of a "if I kill Sayid, I break the rules and if I break the rules my son may die" situation?

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #23.5 - Fri Mar 5, 2010 12:14 PM EST
                                                          Superman2001

                                                          @ WhenAmI:

                                                          You just explained it to me. Dogen knows the deal that Sayid made with Bad Locke. It's the same deal Dogen made with Jacob. And that's the significance of the baseball. Now it makes more sense.

                                                          I'll admit that I watched this episode late at night on DVR, so I might have missed some of these clues. For the first time in a long time, I had no idea what the answer to the trivia question was.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #23.6 - Fri Mar 5, 2010 2:15 PM EST
                                                          Reply
                                                          Mike-780301

                                                          How does Charles Widmore fit into all this? His plot seems to have been ignored along with Faraday's mom.

                                                          Love the show, but don't see how they can tie up all the loose ends by the end of this season.

                                                          • 3 votes
                                                          Reply#24 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:04 AM EST
                                                          H.Dane

                                                          I don't think we're going to see any of the answers to any of the other stuff like that. I think that's what season 5 was about.

                                                          It's like when they issued all those 'Dharma videos' on ABC.com before this season started. To tell us to stop asking about Dharma, cause it's over.

                                                          And keep in mind, seasons 3 and 4 were basically the producers and writers saying "we can't drag this out, the show is suffering...see?...give us an end date!" and ABC kept refusing, despite an obvious need to have an end to work towards, and the writers's strike, etc. So they admit, they aren't happy with a lot of the episodes they had to write. Look it up. My point being, they wrote stuff they didn't really feel worked with the show, and they really didn't have a proper ending to it (they admit it, they didn't know the end, deal with it nerds!) so, a lot of the stuff we saw isn't going to have a history to it, and therefore, no real answers. Widmore came, he made a baby with Eloise, and then Eloise shot said baby, Daniel, in the future past (50s)....then he moved off island to raise his other kid Penny. DONE!

                                                          Sucks, i know.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #24.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:59 AM EST
                                                          OnlyChild

                                                          Also, there was not a scene in the Sidney airport where some minion of Paik's threatened JIn? Sorry if I am wrong here. Unlike most of you, I have watched each episode only once, except for catching an occasional rerun late at night.

                                                            #24.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:29 PM EST
                                                            OnlyChild

                                                            I don't know how my previous comment 24.2 ended up here. Sorry again.

                                                              #24.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 4:36 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              Herbcules74

                                                              I hereby rename the day after Lost as Wacky Theory Wednesday. I came up with this one as I was driving to work. What if Sayid is now a double agent. I was thinking of how Sayid came back to the Island. He never wanted to return, he was captured and arrested by Ilana and she forced him to come back. It was earlier theorized that Nemesis wanted Sayid back on the Island so he would go back in time and shoot little Ben, which would then cause him to be taken to the others to be Saved. I theorized that this is the reason why Ben was able to kill Jacob, because he was a piece of Jacob. For Jacob to be able to do the things he did and be at the right place at the right time he must be able to see into the future. If that is the case, I thought this morning, now that we know that Ilana works for Jacob, why would Jacob want her to bring Sayid back to the Island if he was just going to end up being claimed by the Nemesis. Then it hit me, what if this is all a ruse. Jacob knew what Nemesis' plans were so he got Ilana to bring Sayid back to the Island. In this scenario Jacob's plan for Sayid worked. Sayid was "saved" and is now Jacob's. Jacob turned the water in the spring dark and delayed the resurrection so it looked like Sayid came back evil. Now Nemesis believes that Sayid is his, but Jacob planned this so Sayid can turn on Nemesis at the right moment. To pull off Nemesis believing Sayid was his Jacob had to sacrifice Dogen and Lennon but we have seen him sacrifice players before for the greater good. I don't know if this theory is just my brain going into overdrive because I don't want to see Sayid be evil or if it may be valid. What do you think?

                                                              Herb

                                                              • 7 votes
                                                              Reply#25 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:13 AM EST
                                                              sweetpeas2ds

                                                              Ohhhhhhh, Herb, I LIKE this! That would be so great if Sayid were a double secret agent man! And who better to pull it off than Sayid himself! It makes sense though, because why was it so important that he come back? Has to be more of a reason than what we've seen so far.

                                                              I can't wait to see how this all plays out!

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #25.1 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:54 AM EST
                                                              blackwidow1

                                                              Wacky Theory Wednesday ... I like that.

                                                              That would put an interesting twist on things if Sayd was a double-agent. Especially if you couple that with the idea that other people had about Sawyer conning MIB. Then you'd have two people seemingly on the side of MIB who really aren't. And then throw Kate into the mix - we don't really know where she stands on all this - and Jin, what will his reaction be after he meets up with Sun? Potentially, MIB stands to have a group that's not not working toward his end game.

                                                              Question - Why wasn't Sayid viewed as evil before he joined up with MIB? Despite his brother's (and his own) definition of Sayid as an "interrogator" in the war, Sayid was a torturer. He hurt and killed people in this capacity. He tortured Sawyer on the island. He killed lots of people on the island. He tortured Henry Gale aka Ben Linus. In his "flash forward" he killed many people in cold blood on the orders of Ben Linus - a not very trustworthy guy. He shot a 12 year old boy. In his sideways flash, he's killing Keamy and his men after proclaiming he's "not that person anymore." After knowing he's done all of this, why is he now all of a sudden considered evil?

                                                              Just wondering because this is not the first I've seen people say things along these same lines and I'm always interested in how people think.

                                                              Have a great day Herb!

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #25.2 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:02 AM EST
                                                              pinkcap

                                                              - Why wasn't Sayid viewed as evil before he joined up with MIB? Despite his brother's (and his own) definition of Sayid as an "interrogator" in the war, Sayid was a torturer. He hurt and killed people in this capacity. He tortured Sawyer on the island. He killed lots of people on the island. He tortured Henry Gale aka Ben Linus. In his "flash forward" he killed many people in cold blood on the orders of Ben Linus - a not very trustworthy guy. He shot a 12 year old boy. In his sideways flash, he's killing Keamy and his men after proclaiming he's "not that person anymore." After knowing he's done all of this, why is he now all of a sudden considered evil?

                                                              If I'm correct that Jacob justifies doing horrible things to some for the greater good of the many, then he might look at Sayid at someone who is not torturing or killing to advance his own agenda, but is doing it because by doing it, he is helping many people. Yes, he tortured, but he was ordered to do it for the good of his country. He shot a 12 year old Ben because it would save everyone on the plane. He tortured Ben and Sawyer to get information that would help the plane survivors. Sayid always seemed troubled by the actions he has done which says he does have a conscience. The Others have killed many people for the greater good of the island. Many of the survivors have killed the others. Killing is a sin. These people are all sacrificing their souls to protect themselves and their friends.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #25.3 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:28 AM EST
                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                              Herb....sorry, the "double agent" thing for me is a case of "wishful thinking" on your part. I agree with Pinkcap. Sayid is not evil but rather a man with a past and a conscience who was repentant. He was well aware of whohe had been, but was desperately seeking (even in the Altverse) to believe and prove that it was "not who I am...in my soul". Recall last night his comment to his brother (a theme often repeated by Sayid for many seasons) that: "...I'm not that someone anymore!" when refusing (free will) to help his brother. Also, in LA X his comment to Hurley:

                                                              [Sayid coughs and gags, while bleeding from his gunshot wound] HURLEY: Oh, God. Oh, God, this is gross. [Sayid: Coughing and gagging, wheezing]

                                                              HURLEY: Don't worry, dude. Everything's gonna be fine.

                                                              SAYID: [Weakly] When I die... [groans] what do you think will happen to me?

                                                              HURLEY: Just--just try not to talk, dude.

                                                              SAYID: [Inhales sharply] I've tortured more people than I can remember. I murdered. Wherever I'm going... [whispers] it can't be very pleasant.

                                                              HURLEY: Sayid, come on.

                                                              SAYID: I deserve it!

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #25.4 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:09 AM EST
                                                              JohnBoy813

                                                              Perhaps Jacob is the one possessing Sayid, and is just biding time until he can destroy Nemesis. Just a thought :)

                                                                #25.5 - Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:19 PM EST
                                                                T Bourlon

                                                                Yeah, Wacky Theory Wednesday sounds good. As for the double-agent, I'm thinking Sawyer will come around. He's hurting right now, but he wasn't "infected," so there's my wacky theory.

                                                                  #25.6 - Thu Mar 4, 2010 12:46 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
                                                                  Leave a Comment:
                                                                  You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                                                  You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                                                                  (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                                                                  Newsvine Privacy Statement
                                                                  As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                                                                  FUN STUFF:
                                                                  • Leaderboard |
                                                                  • E-Mail Alerts |
                                                                  • Top of the Vine |
                                                                  • Newsvine Live |
                                                                  • Newsvine Archives |
                                                                  • The Greenhouse |
                                                                  COMPANY STUFF:
                                                                  • Code of Honor |
                                                                  • Company Info |
                                                                  • Contact Us |
                                                                  • Jobs |
                                                                  • User Agreement |
                                                                  • Privacy Policy |
                                                                  • About our ads
                                                                  LEGAL STUFF:
                                                                  • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                  • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                  • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com