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LOST: Richard's Past Revealed in "Ab Aeterno"

Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:23 PM EDT
entertainment, television, tv, abc, lost, lost-in-the-vines, litv
By Steve Watts

Live Poll

What did you think of tonight's episode?

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    Fantastic
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VoteTotal Votes: 348

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Richard reflects on his own place in the struggle between Jacob and Nemesis, as he considers defecting to the other side.

Note: "Lost in the Vines" is made for discussion of the series "Lost" on ABC. As such, here be spoilers! We talk frankly about the events of the night, speculate about future events, and so on. Read no further if you don't want spoilers.

ABC Preview:

Richard Alpert faces a difficult choice.

The Big Reveal: Richard Alpert was brought to the Island in the 1800s, and Nemesis tried to trick him into killing Jacob.

Summary

Ilana wakes up in a hospital bed. Jacob approaches her and pulls up a chair. He says he's sorry he couldn't make it sooner. She says she's happy to see him. He says he needs her help, and she agrees. He tells her there are six people he needs her to protect, and that it's what she's been preparing for. She asks who they are, and he tells her they're candidates.

Jack asks what the candidates are for, and Sun explains they're candidates to replace Jacob. She says she, Jack, and Hurley are all members. Frank asks what they should do now. Ilana says she doesn't know, and Jack asks who does know.

Ilana asks Jacob what to do after she brings them to the Temple. He says to ask Ricardus.

Hurley asks who "Ricardus" is. Ilana points to Richard and asks him what they do next. He laughs and says he has no idea. He points out that he was trying to kill himself, and asks if that sounds like someone who has a plan. He says Jacob was lying when he said he had a plan. Jack asks what he's talking about. Richard tells Jack that he's dead. He says they're not on an Island, they never were. He says they're in hell, so he's not interested in what Jacob says. He claims it's time they stop listening to him and start listening to someone else. He says that's exactly what he's going to do. He picks up a torch and leaves.

=================

Richard walks through forest. Ilana cocks a gun and says she's going after Richard. She says he knows what to do next, and that she trusts what Jacob said. Jack says that he's lost his mind, and wouldn't be talking about listening to someone else. Sun tells him that he meant Locke. Jack says Locke is dead. Ben tells him that it's not "exactly" Locke. Jack walks to Hurley, who's speaking Spanish. Jack asks what he's saying. Hurley says that he isn't speaking to Jacob, and Jack presses him. Hurley says it's not Jacob, and tells him it has nothing to do with him.

Ben tells Ilana that Jack is right to advise against going after Richard. Ilana asks what makes him so sure. Ben says he's known him since he was 12 years old. Frank asks if they met when they were kids. Ben says he was a kid, but Richard was the same. He doesn't age. Frank asks how that happened.

Richard, dressed in a tunic and with a beard, rides on horseback in 1867. He comes to a cabin and tells a woman, Isabella, to go back to sleep. He notices her fever and puts a wet rag on her forehead. She tells him it's alright, then goes into a coughing fit. He unfolds the rag to see blood from her cough, and says he's going to get a doctor. She kisses her crucifix and gives it to him to give to the doctor. He starts to refuse, but she says to take it. He starts to cry, and she tells him to close his eyes. She tells him they'll always be together, and she kisses his cheek. He promises to save her.

He rides through the rain, and bursts into a doctor's house ignoring a servant. The doctor, sitting at a table, says to get him some blankets. Richard explains about his wife, and begs him to come. The doctor says it's a half-day's journey and refuses to ride in the pouring rain. He offers medicine to save her life, but says it's very expensive. Richard offers anything, and the doctor gets up. Richard gives him some coins, and the doctor asks if that's all he has. Richard gives him the necklace and tells him that now he has everything. The doctor tosses it aside and says it's worthless. Richard begs, saying he'll work off the debt. They two get into a struggle, and Richard throws him against a table, killing him. The servant, coming in with blankets, witnesses it. Richard takes the medicine and runs outside and onto his horse to ride back.


When he arrives at his house, Isabella has already died. He checks for a pulse and cries over her body. A guard enters the house and finds him there.

Richard reads a Bible inside a jail cell. A priest comes with some food and asks to see his Bible. Richard explains that he's been teaching himself, that he was going to go to the New World and start a family with his wife. The priest asks if he's ready to make his confession. Richard kneels and begs forgiveness for killing a man. The priest refuses to grant him absolution. Richard tells him it was an accident, but the priest insists. Richard says there must be some way to earn forgiveness. The priest suggests penance. Richard says he'll do anything, but the priest says he doesn't have time. Tomorrow he'll be hanged. He tells Richard that the devil waits for him in hell, and he leaves.

=================

Two guards come in to restrain Richard, and the priest tells them to blindfold him. He recites a prayer as they take him down a hall. A British man asks if this is him, and then checks his teeth. He asks the priest if he speaks English, and the priest tells Mr. Whitfield yes. He asks Richard if he speaks English, but when Richard is silent he tells them to get him a new one. Richard cries out that he speaks English, and the man asks if he works with his hands. Richard says yes, and the man asks if he wants to go to the New World. Richard says yes, and Whitfield takes him. He says he's now property of Magnus Hanso.

On the Black Rock, the prisoners below deck see the Island. Richard looks out and sees the statue, as the prisoners cry out that they see the Island guarded by the devil. The waves rise so high that the Black Rock crashes into the statue.

Hours later, in daylight, Richard wakes up. He says God has spared them. Above the deck, they hear the captors talking about being stranded. The prisoners shout for help. Whitfield comes down into the prisoner deck, pulls his sword, and murders the prisoners one by one. Richard shouts what he's doing. Whitfield explains that they're shipwrecked with limited supplies and only five officers. Richard holds his hands up in surrender and asks why Whitfield is doing this. Whitfield says if he freed him, it would only be a matter of time before he tried to kill him. He draws his sword, and above the cabin they hear the sounds of the Smoke Monster. It kills the other officers. Whitfield asks what happened, and then the black smoke kills him too. Richard tries to break free, and turns to see the smoke heading towards him. He closes his eyes and recites a prayer, and when he opens them again the smoke is gone.

=================

Richard tries to loosen a floor board, and then hears a storm outside. Water drips in and he struggles to stretch to it for a drink. Hours later, he's still trying to loosen the nail from the floorboard, and finally gets it. He uses the nail to wear down his chains, but can't loosen them enough. He wakes up finding a boar in the cabin. The boar runs by, knocking the nail out of his hands. He struggles to reach it but can't.

Later, he sees a dark figure, Isabella. She rushes to hug him, and she tells him that they're both dead and in hell. She says she's come to save him before the devil comes back. She asks if he's seen the devil too, and he says he thinks he has. They hear a noise, and he tells her to go now. He says he wants to save her like he promised, and she leaves the cabin. He hears a scream, and he shouts to leave her alone, and then crumples on the floor crying.

A man enters with a lantern and some cups with a drink, and touches Richard's shoulder. Richard slowly wakes up with a start. He sees the man in black, who offers him water. Nemesis calls himself a friend. Richard asks if they're in hell, and Nemesis says yes. Richard observes that he wasn't on the ship, and Nemesis says he was here a long time. Richard asks about his wife, and explains about the Black Smoke. Nemesis says that probably means "he" has her. Richard asks, who? Nemesis tells him he knows who. He tells Richard he wants to be free too, and offers to unlock him with the keys if Richard will help him get free. Nemesis unlocks him, and says it's good to see him out of those chains. He says the only way to escape from hell is to kill the devil.

=================

Richard eats a meal, and Nemesis tells him how to get to the statue. He tells him the ship broke it into pieces, and that's where he'll find the devil. He gives Richard a knife and tells him that if he speaks it's too late, since he's very persuasive. Richard asks how he can kill black smoke. Nemesis says he's the black smoke. Richard asks if Isabella was running from him, and Nemesis says she was running from the devil but he couldn't stop him. He says the devil took his humanity and betrayed him. Richard protests that he killed the officers. Nemesis says he'll have to kill him. Richard says murder is wrong, but Nemesis asks if he ever wants to see his wife again. Richard reluctantly says that he does, and Nemesis hands him the knife.

Richard travels to the beach and sees the remains of the statue there. He walks towards it, finding the entrance and drawing his knife. As he approaches, he's hit in the face and falls down. He tries to come again with the knife, and Jacob disarms him. He demands to know who gave it to him. Richard asks where his wife is. Jacob says he doesn't know where his wife is, and asks if she came on the ship. Richard says she's dead, and Jacob asks why he's asking where she is then. Jacob asks if Richard met a man in the jungle dressed in black. Richard explains about the smoke monster and his wife, and the deal they made. Jacob tells him he's not dead, and he's not in hell. Richard insists, and Jacob takes him to the water, holding him under. He brings him back up and asks if he still thinks he's dead. He keeps repeating it, until Richard asks for him to stop. Jacob asks for his name, and Richard tells him. Jacob tells him to get up, and says they need to talk.

=================

Jacob pours Richard a drink. Richard asks what's in the statue, and Jacob says no one comes in unless he invites them in. Richard asks if he's the devil. Jacob says no, and Richard asks who he is. Jacob introduces himself and says he brought the ship to the Island. He tells Richard to think of the wine as what he thinks of hell, or malevolence, evil, darkness. He says it's swirling in the bottle unable to get out because if it did, it would spread. He says the cork is the Island, and it's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs. He says that the man who sent him thinks everyone is corruptible because sin is their nature. Jacob says he brings people here to prove them wrong. When they get here their past doesn't matter.

Richard asks if others have been here, and Jacob says there have, but they're all dead. Richard asks why he didn't help. Jacob says he wanted them to help themselves, and if he stepped in and did everything for them there would be no point. Richard points out that if he doesn't, Nemesis will. This gives Jacob pause. He asks Richard if he wants a job. Richard asks, doing what? Jacob says, maybe Richard can step in for him. He says he can be an intermediary for the people he brings to the Island. Richard asks what he gets in return, and Jacob asks what he wants. Richard says he wants his wife back. Jacob says he can't do that. Richard says he wants to be absolved of his sins so he doesn't go to hell. Jacob says he can't do that either. Richard off-handedly says he wants to live forever, then. Jacob tells him that, he can do.

Richard approaches Nemesis, who observes that he let him talk to him. Richard says he told him to give him a small white rock. Nemesis says that he'll never be with his wife again, but says he understands, because he can be very convincing. Nemesis tells him that if he ever changes his mind, his offer still stands. Nemesis says he has something for him, and gives him the gold necklace with his wife's crucifix. Richard looks down at it, and Nemesis is gone. Richard kisses it and buries it in the soil, and says goodbye to Isabella.

Richard finds the spot where he buried the necklace and digs it out. He says he changed his mind. He shouts to Nemesis that he was wrong, and that the offer was supposed to stand. Hurley approaches, asking what offer he's talking about. Richard asks if he followed him. Richard shouts that he doesn't know anything, but Hurley interrupts, saying his wife, Isabella, sent him. He says she wants to know why he buried her cross. Richard is skeptical, but he says Isabella is standing right next to him. Isabella says he doesn't believe him, but Hurley says that sometimes it takes people a while. She says to tell him that his English is beautiful, and Hurley tells him. He starts to cry and asks if she's really here. She says something, and Hurley tells Richard that she wants him to close his eyes.

She speaks, and Hurley translates. He says it's not his fault, and as much as he wanted to save her, it was her time. She says he suffered enough. He says he misses her and would do anything to be with her again. She says that they're already together, and kisses his cheek. She disappears, and Hurley tells him that she's gone. Richard puts on the necklace again, and thanks Hurley. He asks Hurley if something is wrong. Hurley says she said one more thing, something Richard has to do. He tells her, she said that he has to stop the man in black from leaving the Island. If he doesn't, Hurley says, they all go to hell.

Nemesis watches from a distance.

Jacob approaches Nemesis, palming the white rock. Jacob says he got his present. Nemesis tells him not to gloat. Jacob says he tried to kill him. Nemesis asks if he expects an apology. Jacob asks why he did it, and Nemesis says he wants to leave. Jacob says as long as he's alive that won't happen, and Nemesis says that's why he wants to kill him. Jacob says if he does, someone will take his place. Nemesis says, he'll kill them too. Jacob hands him the bottle of wine and tells him it's something to pass the time. He says he'll see him around. Nemesis says, sooner than you think, and smashes the bottle.

Cut to LOST

The Big Questions:

  • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?
  • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?
  • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

Lost in the Vines Trivia Question:

How many candles were lit on the doctor's dining room table?

This Week in Original Articles:

Once again those who write original articles this year will be entered (once per week) in this year's contest. Contributing original articles or being the first to answer the trivia questions are the ways to be entered, so feel free to write!

  • Sabastian's Guide To Understanding Time Travel, Jumps, Shifts and Multiple Worlds (Sabastian Palpatine)
  • "Ab Aeterno"...What does it mean and where does it come from? (Debra Murphy)
  • Did Charles Widmore know Ben Linus would kill Jacob? (Michael Sautter)

Next, on Lost: The Package

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

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Steve Watts

Another fantastic episode, at least in my estimation. It didn't give a ton of new info, but it did confirm a lot of our suspicions. This episode should hopefully put to rest some of the lingering "what-if" scenarios, particularly the "what if Nemesis is the good guy?" I'm not a big fan of that one, and if this episode wasn't a flashing red sign outlining the exact nature of the Jacob/Nemesis struggle, I don't know what will convince people.

Also, for a brand new romance story that we had no prior investment in, it actually connected on an emotional level. That's difficult to do, so bravo.

"We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?

I'm sure all the allusions to Hell were an "ah ha!" among those still insisting on that old theory, but I really think this was more a thematic element than a literal Island revelation. We know from his past that Richard was a deeply religious man, and a lot of this episode dealt with sin, consequences, Hell, et cetera. I don't think the show is literally going into a religious Heaven/Hell interpretation. When Hurley said it at the end, I took that more to mean that the darkness "spreading" off the Island was serious apocalyptic consequences.

Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

Again, I'm going to chalk this up to thematic cues instead of Island clues. Nemesis was trying to convince Richard that Jacob was "the devil." It makes sense that Dogen, when literally speaking about the devil, or the darkness, or whatever name you want to give to pure evil, would say the same thing.

If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

This isn't much of a mystery, just an odd inconsistency. We've seen Richard speaking for Jacob off the Island, but Jacob himself has gone off-Island plenty of times as well. Maybe it's a matter of when Jacob needs to be there to touch people. Richard handles speaking for Jacob in most cases, but if Jacob's magic touch is needed, he has to do it personally.

I did love how Richard actually changed Jacob's mind. We've been presented with Jacob as a deity figure, but he's not beyond hearing a good idea from a "mortal."

  • 16 votes
#1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:31 PM EDT
BlackRock Steve

I did love how Richard actually changed Jacob's mind. We've been presented with Jacob as a deity figure, but he's not beyond hearing a good idea from a "mortal."

Great comment and what I would list as my first "Cheers" for the show. the other one being Anjillina's Cheers comment below about Hugo!!...I loved that scene!

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:50 PM EDT
scrambledeggs

yeah, that was an awesome moment !

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:54 PM EDT
Twinkle391

Great episode. I too thought A ha! I was right. But alas, not so clear cut. I guess what I got out of the whole "hell" theme was something I've believed for a long time. Somewhere along my path, I decided that while Heaven may exist in some fashion, Hell most certainly did not. I think it had something to do with the fear of going to hell imbred in me from the strict Baptist upbringing. If Hell didn't exist, then I wouldn't go there! Logical, right?

Somewhere along the line, after years of reading horrific headlines, seeing evil played out in the news, and working in Child Welfare, I've determined that Hell does exist. And we are living in it.

The human species has so much potential, yet we fail at every turn. We continue to fear those who are unlike us, whether it be skin color, religious beliefs and even sexual orientation, to the point that we've lost our compassion and ability to relate to others. We fight, even to the death, when others do not believe as we do. We kill in the name of God. We kill to punish those who kill.

Of course, not everyone is like this. There are those who see beyond the differences and see the humanity and how we are all really, the same. And thank God that we are in the majority, because when we aren't then evil will win.

Oh yes, this is definitely Hell.

So, I believe when Richard said "this is hell", he was speaking figuratively. We know they aren't dead; some left the island and returned.

And, I don't believe it's about good versus evil - it has always been fate versus free will. Jacob represents free will - to his death - he represented free will. His last words were - you don't have to kill me - you have a choice.

As others have pointed out, we haven't really seen Jacob being "good," so I don't think we could say that it's good versus evil. In fact, Jacob is as manipulative as the MIB.

Now, where Widmore fits in all of this, I've not a clue. Maybe he's just an extra, like Ben and Richard. They aren't candidates, but they definately are in the game. Maybe just pawns?

Still, great episode. And what about that acting by Crestor! Incredible! Maybe he'll get his own show next season...

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:06 AM EDT
parent-43973

Richard off-handedly says he wants to live forever, then. Jacob tells him that, he can do.

The request appeared to have been made somewhat off-handedly, but I think there was more purpose to Richard's request. He had asked for absolution of his sins so he would not go to hell. Jacob said he could not grant that. Thus, Richard believed he was going to hell. So he then asked to live forever so that he could avoid hell (if he was destined for hell due to a lack of absolution, living forever would be a "loophole" to avoid that). I think that makes more sense than an off-hand, "oh, whatever, let me live forever" request out of the blue.

  • 11 votes
#1.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:07 AM EDT
Jekazu

The priest kind of unnerved me telling Richard there was no absolution for him and he was going to hell.

  • 3 votes
#1.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:41 AM EDT
say what??

The priest kind of unnerved me telling Richard there was no absolution for him and he was going to hell.

I thought that too, Jekazu. It wasn't very priestly to tell condemned Richard the devil awaits him in hell and there's nothing he can do to change that. Richard was also let down by the doctor he went to for help - the doctor had absolutely no compassion for Richard and was more concerned about water dripping on his floor than saving Isabella's life. Neither one tried to comfort Richard. After the Black Rock wrecked, the things Richard needed – water, the nail – were just out of his reach. Salvation both in the here and now and in the hereafter seemed out of his reach, so it’s no surprise he readily accepted what he was told about hell and the devil on the island.

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:59 PM EDT
Shaun Guidolin

Now, where Widmore fits in all of this, I've not a clue. Maybe he's just an extra, like Ben and Richard. They aren't candidates, but they definately are in the game. Maybe just pawns?

I guess it depends what makes a candidate. One thing we know pretty much from previous seasons is that Ben and Widmore cannot be killed and obviously either can Richard.. so to me that makes them candidates - or at least dare I say Apostles

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
Shaun Guidolin

Richard handles speaking for Jacob in most cases, but if Jacob's magic touch is needed, he has to do it personally.

What I left wondering after this episode is who the heck is Jacob? How did he get this power to allow a person to live forever. Why can he leave the island and bring people there - but why can't Nemesis (and by the way thanks producers for *not* giving us a stinking name- argh) leave ?

  • 1 vote
#1.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:03 PM EDT
parent-43973

As for the water being out of Richard's reach, maybe, but the nail? Come on, his legs weren't chained!

  • 4 votes
#1.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:04 PM EDT
Superman2001

His legs were chained.

  • 1 vote
#1.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:10 PM EDT
FortifiedHooligan

Did anyone else guffaw outloud when they asked Richard what to do and he did that goofy little laugh? I'm willing to bet that was not a 1 take shot and they better include the laugh outtakes in the dvd release!

Great episode, but I am having a hard time understanding how they are going to tie the electromagnetism, time traveling, hell, hells' cork, and all this together. I don't understand why there is a portal from the cork to Tunisia and a sub too? First time I have been bummed in a long time by the show.

Also, if they cork is now gone, and these people are all happy and better people in the side flash, does that now mean that the darkness is also loose? I'm starting to get the feeling that these people need to be jaded and impure to be on the island and keep the rest of us safe. My prediction is that with no Jacob intervention and the island underwater that these folks might be happy but there is a greater evil going on in the world.

  • 2 votes
#1.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:35 PM EDT
LightOwl8

Replying to FortifiedHooligan #1.11: The cork is the island, not Jacob - at least the way he described it. We know from previous experience that it is a difficult place to leave, so I tend to think that as long as MIB has not left yet, there is still hope. Besides, the candidates are still around, so there is at least a theoretical replacement for Jacob nearby - I don't think the cork is completely out of the bottle yet.

And yes, I liked the laugh too!

    #1.12 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:02 PM EDT
    LightOwl8

    Hi Steve! All due respect, but I just wanted to point out a potential correction in your article. I don't see it noted anywhere else in the comments. Isabella's necklace was a cross, but not a crucifix. See the image in this Wikipedia article (which, as of 3/25/10 was nominated for renaming as "Isabella's cross"):

    http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard%27s_crucifix

    A crucifix is a cross that displays an image of the crucified Christ (in Latin, the corpus). While there are many different styles of crosses, a bare cross without the corpus is not called a crucifix.

    Peace!

      #1.13 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
      FortifiedHooligan

      LightOwl, I meant that the island is the cork. by the cork being gone, I meant the island being underwater in the side flash world. I was still scatterbrained when I first typed this up =X

        #1.14 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:44 PM EDT
        Superman2001

        Did anyone else guffaw outloud when they asked Richard what to do and he did that goofy little laugh? I'm willing to bet that was not a 1 take shot and they better include the laugh outtakes in the dvd release!

        Not only did I lol, I rewound the scene three or four times, then rewatched it after the episode was over. I'm still trying to imitate it. That was hilarious.

          #1.15 - Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:07 PM EDT
          Reply
          Anjillina
        • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell? Well, it makes sense that Man in Black/Diablo/Nemesis person would play on the fears that Richard and his shipmates already had. He was once again using their weaknesses to try to convince them to do his dirty work. It almost worked too. I will say though that when Richard first told Jack "you're dead - we're all dead" I was thinking HA - I said that 5 years ago! I'm sure they aren't, but it was fun for a second.
        • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob? Because both sides know that the other side is very persuasive. Therefore they have similar rules and regulations. They know if they talk, they will be convinced not to kill the other. What I think though is that Dogen thought the rules would still be in effect when he sent Sayid out to kill Nemesis, but they no longer work correctly since Jacob is "dead."
        • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates? Because it took Jacob's actual touch sometimes to steer the person to the island? Guessing.
        • Cheers - I thought this was a very good episode. It needed to be in there somewhere because the Richard character has always been so interesting. This explained him pretty well I thought. Also HUGE Cheer because there is NO doubt who is good and who isn't between Jacob and Nemesis. NONE. ZERO. Just a note to anyone who says there is doubt - being good always has been and always WILL be more difficult than being an evil scumbag. The rewards are greater, but the life is harder. Good people know that.

          Love Richard. Felt very bad for him. Oh, and LOVE that Hurley did what he needed to do and also that he told Jack to butt out. Good for Hurley.

          • 19 votes
          #2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:36 PM EDT
          pinkcap

          ...being good always has been and always WILL be more difficult than being an evil scumbag. The rewards are greater, but the life is harder. Good people know that.

          How true. It's always harder to do the right thing.

          The MIB always promises your heart's desire. It would be so easy to follow him and do his bidding to get what you want, but will you really get it? Jacob promises something he can do, never something he can't do.

          • 8 votes
          #2.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:40 PM EDT
          blackwidow1

          To play the devil's advocate here (pun most definitely intended LOL) ... as you say pinkcap, MIB may promise your heart's desire ... but he's never been allowed/permitted/shown to deliver on his promises. But he's also never been shown to not deliver them either. The writers are showing us what they want us to see, when they want us to see it.

          • 4 votes
          #2.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:33 AM EDT
          BlackRock Steve

          OK now bw1...you just stole what was going to be the name for my next article! Everyone still hangs the "good" & "evil" labels on these 2 dudes....sorry, but as Bbw1 points out...I still haven't seen the good yet....and until there is evidence or folks can show me where I missed the proof...the spoken word of the show via characters is that dear Jacob ordered the purge (genocide) and then some...thus, while I agree they are making it "look" & often sound like Jacob is good, I'm left with the "or is he" question or the "was it a test" question...as well as who's really the owner/user of the Lighthouse (there's no verification whatsoever that it's Jacob's, and more indications that it is not)...whoever that is perhaps is the real "man behind the curtain" and either the real good or evil guy!!??

          • 4 votes
          #2.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:54 AM EDT
          def-1635820

          The good that we have already seen is the redemption that happens when someone makes the right, and often selfless, decision for someone else over themself. See Julliet and Ben for proof.

          Regarding the genocide, there is a history of destruction of whole civilizations of people who were destroyed at the hand of God, and for what "good", we do not know. Sometimes the corruption is too great, Sodom and Gommorah, sometimes we just don't know the reasoning. In the end, we are not in control; that control belongs to someone else.

          • 3 votes
          #2.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:12 AM EDT
          Lost in Space and Time 316

          I have to agree with BRS and BW1 here, sorry Anjillina..... I still do not see either being all bad or all good. I thought Jacob looked a little shifty when he was talking to Richard on the beach, and seemed so much like the jailer in his conversation with Nemesis. I think Jacob may think he is good because he believes he is helping, but seriously what good guy brings people to the island just to play out game with his nemesis? I agree we are only seeing what the producers what us to see at this point. Please write that article BRS.

          • 2 votes
          #2.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:43 AM EDT
          Anjillina

          Ok - Jacob IS the jailer with Nemesis. Nemesis is evil - evil that if allowed to get loose into the world will destroy it. Jacob is preventing that. It's not a game and he isn't bringing people there for a game. He's bringing people there to try to give "Nemesis" a chance to see how wrong his motivations are and possibly "save" him (for want of a better term). Also, he actually needs someone to replace him because he knew that Nemesis was most likely to avoid his attempts to save him and would, instead, kill him. Not a game for Jacob - an attempt to avoid the destruction of all humanity. : )

          • 8 votes
          #2.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:12 AM EDT
          eriq samson

          I think people may be confused about Jacob - he is not necessarily "Good" as much as the protector against evil (MIB) / jailer of evil (MIB)

          I also don't see any contradiction in what he did with Richard; he initially wanted Richard to replace him but instead settled for Richard being his representative to other candidates

          • 1 vote
          #2.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:38 AM EDT
          Lost in Space and Time 316

          Angillina - good thing I don't have to go through Dogan's "test", my scale might be leaning the "wrong way" ; ).

          So maybe the whole thing with Jacob and Nemesis is to test our perception of good and evil? And maybe, like eriq said above, Jacob and Nemesis just have their set roles on the island, neither person is good or evil, just their jobs? But, then I have no answer as to why Nemesis can never leave the island if he isn't in fact evil incarnate....... need more caffeine and possibly to re-watch the episode.

          • 1 vote
          #2.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:54 AM EDT
          pinkcap

          but he's never been allowed/permitted/shown to deliver on his promises. But he's also never been shown to not deliver them either. The writers are showing us what they want us to see, when they want us to see it.

          Black Widow, You are correct, but if Jacob can't deliver on those promises, how can the MIB?

          I agree that not everyone is totally good and totally evil, but we've never seen Jacob directly killing anyone. He brings them to the island, but if the MIB is as evil as he appears, he could be the one doing the harm. We have seen him kill people. Jacob may bring them to the island, but we don't know if he's responsible for the deaths that occur on their journey to the island. The MIB could be interfering with this, or it could just be their time to die.

          In life, God gives everyone free choice. There are bad things that happen in this world. Many people do blame God, but is God doing this or is it the free choice he gives us that allows it to happen? Plane crashes happen. Does God do it because he's cruel, or does it happen because it was their time to die? No one lives forever. Some die young and some die at a very old age. Most of us accept that it's part of God's plan. We don't understand it, but we accept it.

          • 3 votes
          #2.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:57 AM EDT
          Anjillina

          Oh - and let me say - I agree that NO human is fully good or evil. But I don't think that Jacob and MIB are supposed to be human (despite what MIB keeps saying).

            #2.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:10 AM EDT
            T Bourlon

            I agree, I don't think this is "good v evil" so much as what kind of choices people make. Nor is Jacob an angel, why would he bring a shipload of people to the Island and let Nemesis kill the majority of them? That part really makes NO SENSE, not even with his statement about "if I intervene that defeats the purpose," or whatever he said. Especially since he suddenly decided to make Ricardo his spokesman. WHAT???

            btw, Richard was good, but Hurley stole the show. Now, WHO'S the new Jacob???

              #2.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:07 PM EDT
              Sabastian Palpatine

              ...and the "who's good / who's evil" debate continues.....

              "...the spoken word of the show via characters is that dear Jacob ordered the purge (genocide) and then some...thus, while I agree they are making it "look" & often sound like Jacob is good, I'm left with the "or is he" question or the "was it a test" question...as well as who's really the owner/user of the Lighthouse (there's no verification whatsoever that it's Jacob's, and more indications that it is not)...whoever that is perhaps is the real "man behind the curtain" and either the real good or evil guy!!??"

              Speaking of "The Man Behind the Curtain", in season 3 Ben takes Locke to go visit Jacob who supposedly resides in Jacob's Cabin. We find out later in season 5 (The Incident) that Jacob had not used the cabin for a long time and that someone else had been using it.

              I think that there is more evidence to support that it was MIB who ordered "The Purge" than there is that Jacob ordered it.

              We know that MIB had been orchestrating his plan that started long before The D.I. came to the Island (before "The Purge") which involved "finding a loophole" to kill Jacob.

              MIB had been working on Ben and Locke for a long time, probably since the day that both of them were born so that when the time came both would choose to play their individual roles in either dying for the island and being a fresh corpse for MIB to replicate (Locke) or being angry and self centered enough to be immune to Jacob's talking (Ben unlike Richard wouldn't be swayed by Jacob's words) after MIB gave Ben his final order.

              Not only that but let's look at the candidates who are still on "Team Jacob": Jack, Hurley and Sun. Would you say that the character of these 3 people a basically good or evil?

              Obviously all 3 are flawed human beings but on the scale of which extreme holds more weight can you seriously say "I'm not sure which side their on"? Hurley alone is a freakin' saint! Jack was willing to take Sayid's poison pill at The Temple rather than taking the chance of killing his friend, Sun (when she was together with Jin) was always helping Jack with medical emergencies (e.g. Shannon's asthma, Sawyer's headaches, Boone's fighting for his life after the drug plane fell off of the island cliff with him in it).

              Respectfully to all in this discussion who are not sure which side is good or evil, how many specific selfless acts can you name that MIB has shown the audience? Are there any promises that MIB has made that don't basically benefit him and his goal to get off of the island? If you believe in the human Soul, (and looking past who died or has been physically hurt) how many people have had a positive change in their individual consciousness and mind set due to chooing to follow MIB?

              I think that Claire, Sawyer and Sayid would benefit greatly from a little sit down with Jedi Master Yoda.....

              Yoda: "...The fear of loss is a path to the dark side...Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is."

              Anakin Skywalker: "What must I do, Master Yoda? "

              Yoda: "Train yourself to let go... of everything you fear to lose. "

              Anakin couldn't let go of his attachments to his loved ones (specifically his wife who would end up dying any way). Because Darth Sidious (The Villain) was able to see what Anakin was emotionally invested in, because Darth Sidious was able to exploit it for his own personal and selfish gain (to have unlimited political power over the galaxy) he was able to seduce Anakin into choosing the path of "the dark side" and eventually that path lead Anakin to become Darth Vader who literally killed many men women and children at Darth Sidious' command.

              • 7 votes
              #2.12 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:40 PM EDT
              Anjillina

              T Bourlon - I don't know why everyone keeps assuming that Jacob brought the ship there just for "fun" or to have everyone but Richard killed or whatever. I posted this later - but my immediate (and lasting) feeling was when he said that that he was trying to save them from the storm. However, MIB killed them all but Richard. Jacob knew the storm was certain death, but they may have a chance on the island.

              And Sebastian - Awesome post. LOVE the yoda quote.

              • 1 vote
              #2.13 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:13 PM EDT
              pinkcap

              Nice post Sebastian. We have never seen Jacob kill anyone, but we have seen the MIB do it. In last night's episode, Jacob told Richard he couldn't give him his wife back. He didn't make a promise he couldn't keep. I agree about the purge - right now we don't know who ordered it. We have seen the MIB try to evoke anger from Claire like Darth Sidious did to Anakin. That's how he was able to control her. The conversation between Anakin and Yoda reminded me of the scene last week from Little House on the Prairie about our memories of those we've lost.

              • 2 votes
              #2.14 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:43 PM EDT
              T Bourlon

              "Respectfully to all in this discussion who are not sure which side is good or evil, how many specific selfless acts can you name that MIB has shown the audience?"

              None, but I suppose you can say the same for Jacob. But MIB has already been proven a liar, by telling Claire that the Others had Aaron in the temple when he knew they didn't. And his lame "she needed someone to hate," how convenient that the very someone chosen was ALSO the enemy he wanted to take out! I like the theory that MIB tricked Ben into thinking Jacob wanted the purge, see, he corrupted Ben (not difficult, but let's not go there). I have a theory as to why MIB didn't kill Ricardo besides the "kill Jacob" thing. The Officers had decided to kill the chained prisoners because they didn't want to compete with them for survival. They were also corrupted, so Smokey killed them. Maybe Jacob didn't intervene because it was already a lost cause. And all the other prisoners were already dead. So MIB scans Ricardo, finds what he believes is a weakness, and sets up the trick. Yeah, that's a good possibility.

              • 2 votes
              #2.15 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:42 PM EDT
              Sabastian Palpatine

              "Respectfully to all in this discussion who are not sure which side is good or evil, how many specific selfless acts can you name that MIB has shown the audience?"

              None, but I suppose you can say the same for Jacob.

              Then I have to ask, why didn't Jacob defend himself when Ben showed up with FLocke to kill him? We've seen Jacob defend himself when Ricardus showed up with his blade.

              Could it be that it was more import to Jacob that Ben choose to do the right thing and let Jacob and his Nemesis discuss their "issues" than it was for Jacob to keep his own life? I think that that qualifies as a selfless act. Miles confirms this theory when he told Ben that up until the knife entered Jacob's chest, he was hoping that he was wrong about Ben.

              • 2 votes
              #2.16 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:20 PM EDT
              lostinventura

              i don't understand why jacob would allow Ben to kill him under any circumstances. the consequences being that not only would he be dead, he knew full well that MIB would then try to kill everyone of the candidates.

                #2.17 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:28 PM EDT
                say what??

                he knew full well that MIB would then try to kill everyone of the candidates.

                Maybe he wants to infect all the candidates so that whichever one replaces Jacob will really be a surrogate of MIB and allow him to "pop the cork" and spill out into the real world (whatever that is in LOST).

                  #2.18 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:25 AM EDT
                  Sabastian Palpatine

                  "i don't understand why jacob would allow Ben to kill him under any circumstances. the consequences being that not only would he be dead, he knew full well that MIB would then try to kill everyone of the candidates."

                  I'm guessing that Jacob had a plan. He knew that Hurley had the gift of talking to dead people so that Jacob could still help the candidates out. Also, I think that Jacob is big on free will and the freedom to choose. He wants the candidates to help themselves in regards to keeping the darkness imprisoned on the Island.

                  It makes sense if you think about it. It's on the job training. How will Jacob's replacement learn to be the warrior (both mentally and physically) that he or she would have to be in order to spend the next X amount of years dealing with Nemesis if the candidates don't learn to fight this battle on their own?

                  • 3 votes
                  #2.19 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:43 AM EDT
                  lostinventura

                  i guess b/c my job requires me to problem solve and look at every possible outcome, i still find a major flaw in the arguments that Jacob (a) is all about free will; and (b) that it makes sense he'd allow Ben to kill him. as for (a), whether you nudge or actually force a ship to crash on your island to play out your game, free will has been infected. and yes he didn't "force" the candidates to return to the island, but arguably he did far more than nudge to get all the people to the island that he's brought over the years.

                  re: (b) Jacob is the one bringing the people to the island that could potentially kill him, or serve the loophole, etc. Jacob could stay out of everyone's lives, not smash boats on the island or "nudge" people and it would be just him and MIB, with no loophole for MIB to use. I'd say it was Jacob that actually knew and created the loophole in the first place.

                    #2.20 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:47 PM EDT
                    Superman2001

                    whether you nudge or actually force a ship to crash on your island to play out your game, free will has been infected

                    Asking someone to do something and then letting them make a conscious decision to do so is not an infringement upon free will. This was clearly demonstrated in Hurley's case, but is also pretty obvious with Jack (who desperately wanted to go back), Kate and Sun. The only one who didn't decide to go back of his own volition, who had decided NOT to go back and was standing by that decision, was Sayid. Considering the fact that Ilana works for Jacob, I can give you that case, but the rest made the choice on their own. Doesn't matter that they were asked to do so. It's still free will.

                    As for crashing the ship, yeah, he brought the people to the Island, but the decisions they make are still theirs. The captain who decided to kill the slaves wasn't influenced to do that by anyone; he did it because he's a bad, non-industrious person, and likely would have done so even if they had shipwrecked somewhere else. At the end of the day, all of our lives are affected -- tampered with, if you will -- by external forces, no matter what they may be. What we choose to do at any given moment, whether circumstances are good or bad, whether slaves or free men, is an expression of our free will. So yeah, Jacob brought the ship to the Island, and maybe the plane as well, but that doesn't mean that he's not about free will.

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.21 - Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:16 PM EDT
                    pinkcap

                    Superman

                    Great post.

                      #2.22 - Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:59 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      scrambledeggs

                      I think that the island amplifies whatever emotional state the person is in, because it has had different effects on different characters. If they were seeking to be healed, the island healed them. If they wanted a walkabout, they got it. It wasn't a hellatious experience for everyone. But having said that, it seems like every major character has been responsible for the death of someone, even if by accident - maybe an unanticipated consequence of their actions. For this, the island offers an opportunity for penance.

                      I said this a couple of weeks ago - I felt that the dagger Dogen gave Sayid was ceremonial, and since Dogen's and Nem's instructions were identical, I believe that the stabbing in the heart thing is symbolic too. There's a lot of knife symbolism out there, and one is that it represents an energy transfer. So, the game strategy could be keeping the good outweighing the bad (literally, as seen on those cave scales of justice).

                      When Nem approached Richard in human form on the Black Rock, a blue butterfly wisped in through the iron grates. Butterflies represent rebirth and new life, but also a person's soul! So it was like underlining the idea that Nem makes you make a bargain with the devil, and you give away your soul.

                      I'm going to guess that Jacob did his own work when his "touch" was required, or after the candidates had been sufficiently vetted by their decisions. Since Richard has come in as an advisor, whatever group is on the island maybe trusts him, and since Jacob looks so - human - people would have a hard time believing his stories and his plans.

                      Did you catch that the vial of crystals was probably the same one that was seen in Richard's bunch of items he showed young Locke, when he said he wanted to recruit him for a special school.

                      A question I had was, is there any significance that the Black Rock broke the Anubis statue?

                      • 13 votes
                      #3 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:50 PM EDT
                      pinkcap

                      Scrambled Eggs

                      Good post. Great catch on the vial of crystals. It does look very much like the vial he showed Locke.

                      I agree that butterflies are symbols of rebirth, new life, and a person's soul, but the blue butterfly represents a wish granted or a malicious spirit.

                      • 3 votes
                      #3.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:44 PM EDT
                      blackwidow1

                      Hey eggs,

                      One of the guys I work with who also watches Lost theorized a few weeks back that the BlackRock crashed into the statue during a storm/hurricane. Damn, I guess he was right.

                      He also thought that perhaps the rubble from the statue is what was used to build the temple. While they didn't show that tonight, it certainly seems possible.

                      • 3 votes
                      #3.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:50 PM EDT
                      dcotts42

                      The statue falling over when hit by the Black Rock means that the one time jump the they made was to a time before Richard and the Black Rock.

                      • 9 votes
                      #3.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:55 AM EDT
                      parent-43973

                      Lost is trying too hard to tie up loose ends, and flailing at it. The Black Rock was not just washed ashore, but is several *miles* inland. No hurricane could do that. Even the tsunami that hit Indonesia a few years back did not send ships that far inland (and if it were the case that a "super tsunami" brought the ship inland, there would have been far more destruction to the vegetation near the newly destroyed statue from the water).

                      Also, what's up with 1867? White slavery to the "New World" two years after the U.S. Civil War ended and more than 70 years after the Haiti Slave Revolt? And by the BRITISH?? Really? And why does Ricardo call it the "New World"? He is learning English, so he can only mean America (or Canada), and by 1867 most people were using the name "America" (even if there was some appropriate use of the old nickname, why *only* that use, more than once, and never the name America? Just doesn't make sense for 1867 -- maybe for 1667, but that was not the case). These little details just don't make any sense. (Is there something canonical that requires the Black Rock to have sailed in 1867?)

                      • 5 votes
                      #3.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:18 AM EDT
                      Lost in Space and Time 316

                      I believe the new world they were referring to was Australia.

                      • 3 votes
                      #3.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:46 AM EDT
                      parent-43973

                      I don't believe Australia was ever referred to as the "New World". That was an apellation exclusively for the Western Hemisphere during the Age of Exploration. Also, in the mid-1800s, Australia was not an immigrant destination, but rather a place where Britain sent its castoffs. Ricardo and Isabella would no more be preparing to immigrate to Australia than to Devil's Island.

                      • 3 votes
                      #3.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:01 AM EDT
                      BAjunkie

                      Black Rock broke the Anubis statue?

                      Actually, the statue is Tawaret, as revealed in a Wired magazine puzzle by J.J. Abrams. Tawaret is the Egyptian goddess of childbirth and fertility.

                      • 3 votes
                      #3.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:06 AM EDT
                      Anjillina

                      On the subject of the ship and the statue, could a wooden ship smash a stone statue if forced by a tsunami without splintering into bits? I just wondered because I really have no idea.

                      • 6 votes
                      #3.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:16 AM EDT
                      eriq samson

                      Anji - probably not if it were solid stone; if it is basically plaster over a wooden frame, then yes it could

                      Parent - you are assuming it was a natural force, a natural wave and not something supernatural (after all Jacob caused it)

                      Also your comment about the "New world" says you are white and undereducated - for the Spanish (remember they were from the Canary Islands and spoke spanish) who invented the term it referred to the AMERICAS (north, central, and south) and yes there were countries that still had slavery, (In fact some still have "chattel slavery" in which people are "bought" and forced into indentured servitude - forced to pay for their own "travel" expenses with pay that will never allow that "repayment"; Paraguay in particular is notorious for that and everyone refers to it as slavery. Brazil, being Portuguese colonized (and the Portuguese being the master slave traders) had official slavery long after some of it's neighbors had officially banned it

                      Coincidentally Richard dod not call it the "new world" but "el mundo nuevo", he was speaking spanish

                      In the episode no one used the word "slave"

                      • 5 votes
                      #3.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
                      Ross-883683

                      At first I thought it was the Hurley bird flying towards the ship. Then I saw it was a butterfly when it got to Richard. I also thought the vile of powder was the medicine that Richard took. Though when he showed it to young John, it looked like sand. Also, would this have not been taken from him in the jail?

                      Yeah, if Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island, why was it in the dead of night in a violent storm? Why let Richard lie there so long after everyone else was dead? Jacob could have went to Richard before MIB, instead he let MIB release him and come to him. Was that his plan all along?

                        #3.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:11 PM EDT
                        kcjhawk

                        Perhaps in order to trust Richard fully, Jacob had to let him be tempted by MIB and then CHOOSE to follow Jacob.

                        • 3 votes
                        #3.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:27 PM EDT
                        Lost in Space and Time 316

                        The New World is one of the names used for the non-Afro-Eurasian parts of the Earth, specifically America and Australia. [per wikkapedia]. The transport of convicts to Australia ceased in 1868.

                        Not sure if that is where Richard was going, and I'm not sure it is all that important. I think what was important was he was planning on a better life than the one he and his wife had on the Island.

                          #3.12 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:38 PM EDT
                          parent-43973

                          My points were that the Black Rock was a slave ship, not an indentured servant ship, the slaves were all whites, at least as that term would have been considered in the mid-19th century, it was owned by a Scandinavian (Hanso) and crewed by British officers (Britain had banned the slave trade in 1807), and "New World" was over used in the context (okay, maybe once, twice, but not exclusively to the absense of actual place names). All of that together does not "prove" anything, but it shows a lot of sloppiness onthe part of the writers because the odds of all of those factors occurring together are low; in the end, weighing all the evidence presented by the writers, 1867 is not well supported as a date.

                          • 4 votes
                          #3.13 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:13 PM EDT
                          Susanaree

                          Apropos of nothing, I keep coming back to the scene at Dharmaville when Sawyer, Hurley (with Aaron on his lap), and Locke were playing some game. Sawyer makes a move and Hurley got all in his face. "Dude, Australia is the key to everything!"

                          • 6 votes
                          #3.14 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:15 PM EDT
                          pinkcap

                          Susanaree - That's interesting. You may be onto something there.

                            #3.15 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
                            Superman2001

                            They were playing Risk, no? What is interesting about that is that, if they were playing Risk, Australia is the most insignificant continent in the game and is NOT the key to everything. It's only reachable by taking over southeast Asia and then breaking through from the north, so if you control Australia, you need to control southeast Asia in order to take over the rest of the map. So, if that game was Risk, then the fact that Hurley claimed Australia was the key to the everything says to me that the writers threw that in there for a specific reason, because Australia is NOT the key to anything in Risk.

                            • 4 votes
                            #3.16 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:20 PM EDT
                            pinkcap

                            The writers are very good about details. I've never played the game, so thanks for the info. My husband use to play it with our boys, so I've only observed the game. If I knew it was going to be incorporated into the show, I would have said yes when they asked if I wanted to join them.

                            • 1 vote
                            #3.17 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:49 PM EDT
                            Superman2001

                            I should revise my comments about Australia's role in the game. Some players like to hold Australia because, unlike every other continent in the game, it only has one point of entry, so oftentimes, it winds up as the last standing continent as another player takes over the board. I guess it has some significance, but it's not the key to the game.

                            • 3 votes
                            #3.18 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:57 PM EDT
                            Magpie1970

                            And I have a question...at the end of S5, when Jacob & MIB are on the beach, they are looking out at a ship on the water (which I assume is the Black Rock). Why, then, did the ship all of a sudden end up in a storm that pushed it to the island? Something is amiss. I always assumed the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the jungle during one of the 'island jumps'. I don't know...just seems a bit inconsistent.

                              #3.19 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:56 PM EDT
                              Superman2001

                              I wondered about that as well, Magpie. I think the ship was a ways off, and seeing as how Jacob apparently stirred the storm up, it would stand to reason that he could do so pretty quickly. Don't know whether that's the case or not, though. It could have been a different ship, I suppose. Don't know.

                                #3.20 - Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:19 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                Bandit-847315

                                Major CHEERS!

                                Loved the love story with Richard and Isabella! I felt it helped the character of Richard become more human. All of this time we never knew what exactly he was, good insight there.

                                Hurley was also good tonight, just love that he has such an important role now, not there for just comic relief. I think there are going to be more good things for Hurley, his sideways story will be interesting.

                                No real jeers tonight, just a good show tonight moving the story forward well.

                                Question for all of you Losties - Smokey is now Locke, he was also Isabella I am guessing, what is limiting him from changing to another person rather than Locke? Can he only change when there is one Island Keeper, i.e. Jacob? Will he not be able to change when one of the "chosen" ones steps up to be the safe keeper?

                                Again, loved the direction of the show tonight.

                                • 5 votes
                                Reply#4 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:54 PM EDT
                                Steve Watts

                                Smokey is now Locke, he was also Isabella I am guessing, what is limiting him from changing to another person rather than Locke?

                                Damon and Carlton said a week or so back on the Official Lost Podcast that Nemesis could only change forms until Jacob was killed. He's basically stuck in the form he was in at the time Jacob was murdered. He was Isabella tonight, but those parts took place before Jacob's murder, so it still makes sense.

                                • 9 votes
                                #4.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:58 PM EDT
                                scrambledeggs

                                my bet is that Nem is stuck in place when the island is between guardians - another rule - but i'm just guessing

                                oh Steve! i see you just posted that point - i was right! yay!

                                • 3 votes
                                #4.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:58 PM EDT
                                Bandit-847315

                                I agree Steve, but when there is a replacement for Jacob, I would guess he will be capable of changing again, true?

                                • 2 votes
                                #4.3 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:00 PM EDT
                                Steve Watts

                                I assume so, Bandit.

                                • 1 vote
                                #4.4 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT
                                Shaun Guidolin

                                maybe a good question is -- why can't he change once Jacob is dead? What is it about Jacob - or perhaps the balance of power - that allows him to manifest?

                                • 1 vote
                                #4.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:10 PM EDT
                                safton

                                He was Isabella tonight, but those parts took place before Jacob's murder, so it still makes sense.

                                TO Steve: When Isabella was talking to Richard through Hurley, that was current, real time. So do you still think it was Smokie?

                                  #4.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:24 PM EDT
                                  Shaun Guidolin

                                  no - remember only Hurley could see her - that was either:

                                  a) Jacob

                                  b) Hurley's ability to see dead people

                                  My guess is that it was B .. as Jacob being dead allows Hurley to see both of them

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #4.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:07 PM EDT
                                  Monbon

                                  I think Isabella was dead in the real time conversation. Hurley was able to communicate for her because he can speak to the dead. As for when Richard seemed to "hear" Isabella....um...true love conquers all?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #4.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:02 PM EDT
                                  belle42

                                  I think the 'hearing' Isabella was a storytelling convention so we didn't have the same line twice over and over. The audience 'got it' after the first repetition. It was understood that it was Hurley repeating what she said.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #4.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:06 PM EDT
                                  Superman2001

                                  Belle, that's what I figured, too.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:22 PM EDT
                                  Jekazu

                                  Same here. I think I would've gone a little nutso if they wasted time having Hurley repeat everything after Isabella said it.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #4.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:43 PM EDT
                                  minklady

                                  That scene reminded me of many Ghost Whisperer scenes: Is she here with us? She's standing right next to you, she wants you to know that she's alright........the interpreter just says the high level information.

                                    #4.12 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:02 PM EDT
                                    Susanaree

                                    MinkLady - I'm not a huge fan of Ghost Whisperer, and part of the reason is that the Whisperer paraphrases the communication from the deceased to the living! Call me nit-picky, but that drove me crazy! I was so afraid Hugo was going to go down the same route, but he didn't - there were specific words and turns of phrase that had peculiar and special meaning to Richard. Hugo respected that, and I (sniff) love him all the more for it!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #4.13 - Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:48 AM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    BlackRock Steve

                                    Why all the talk of Hell?

                                    And what do you think the island is??? It’s all been about judgment and “lost souls”…what better ironical (a typical Lost device) depiction of the “gates to Hell” than a beautiful “Garden of Eden”-like island!! (and for the more traditional biblical “fire & brimstone" folks…well, it is a volcano underneath!) There’s the “Anubis”/Ammit Egyptian reference to last judgment and the gates to hell and then there’s the Buddhist scales of judgment and then there’s all the talk of 2nd chances…I’ve thought since last year they have made it obvious that the island isn’t “Hell” but rather Judgment. I am still assuming that

                                    Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

                                    The “rules of the game” are the same for both sides so I would expect the comments to be the same; but, as with Sayid, it’s hard to stick that dagger before they talk or you get jumped…none of these characters are very smart when it comes to sneaking up on an adversary…I guess none of them had Army Ranger training!

                                    If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

                                    Well, Jacob did say, I think: ”…on the island for me”?? I’m assuming the difference is Jacob’s off-island exploits have been “confined” to his doomsday team recruiting and protection…which still leaves me with the mystery of what he is really up to with them!?

                                    My only "Jeers"...that they waited so long to give us dear Richard's "flash back" history...they could have worked it in sooner without giving much away, but then maybe it wouldn't have been as dramatic!?

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#5 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:00 PM EDT
                                    Steve Watts

                                    Well seeing as you are "Black Rock Steve," I assumed you were making a cameo tonight. Weren't you that prisoner that looked like Zack Galifianakis?

                                    none of these characters are very smart when it comes to sneaking up on an adversary…I guess none of them had Army Ranger training!

                                    To be fair, Richard's a lover, not a fighter. He only killed one dude, and that was an accident. Plus, apparently Jacob is pretty badass for a messiah figure.

                                    Well, Jacob did say, I think: ”…on the island for me”?? I’m assuming the difference is Jacob’s off-island exploits have been “confined” to his doomsday team recruiting and protection…which still leaves me with the mystery of what he is really up to with them!?

                                    I thought of that too, but we've seen Richard off the Island as well. He's the one that showed up to the house of Li'l Locke and gave him the "are you the chosen one?" pop quiz. That certainly seemed to be a candidate test of sorts. I'm sticking with the idea that Jacob shows up when he needs to touch someone.

                                    • 5 votes
                                    #5.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:05 PM EDT
                                    BlackRock Steve

                                    Well seeing as you are "Black Rock Steve," I assumed you were making a cameo tonight. Weren't you that prisoner that looked like Zack Galifianakis?

                                    Thanks, Steve...I'm laughing too hard to come up with a good response!!! But, actually I'm still hiding in the bushes out there!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #5.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:10 PM EDT
                                    Anjillina

                                    Plus, apparently Jacob is pretty badass for a messiah figure.

                                    Just a reminder - remember when Jesus got mad in the temple and tossed everybody's tables and ran them out of the temple for selling trinkets and prostituting and such? That's what I thought of when Jacob was kicking Richard's rear.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #5.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:25 AM EDT
                                    safton

                                    I thought Jacob was kicking richard's rear to convince him he was still alive?

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #5.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:27 PM EDT
                                    Foundling

                                    Observation: Regarding when Richard went to Locke as a little boy and gave him the test. Didn't John choose the knife? The same knife that Nem gave Richard last night to go kill Jacob? (Same knife Dogan gave Sayid?) No wonder Richard was so flustered when little John made that choice. I love it when the writing comes full circle. However (always a continuity question!) in later life, did Richard ever approach grown-up Locke with any inkling of trepidation that Locke had chosen or would be used by the 'dark side'? I don't recall any.....?

                                    Question: At the close of last season, Jacob and the MIB were sitting on the beach talking and there was a ship sailing toward the island on calm seas. Did we know before that that was not the Black Rock? I had assumed it was...but the BR arrived via hurricane. Guess it was one of the other ships/groups of people Jacob had brought to the island. Agree?

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #5.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:36 PM EDT
                                    say what??

                                    The same knife that Nem gave Richard last night to go kill Jacob? (Same knife Dogan gave Sayid?)

                                    It was not the same knife - the one young Locke chose was a much cruder looking hunting knife. The handle can be seen on the left on top of the comic book in this link

                                    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090310072920/lostpedia/images/7/7f/AlpertItems.jpg

                                      #5.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:47 PM EDT
                                      Foundling

                                      I took out "at least symbolically" from my post. Thought it was reaching and trying too hard to make a connection. Maybe there is none.

                                      Thanks for the image!

                                        #5.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:58 PM EDT
                                        Superman2001

                                        Question: At the close of last season, Jacob and the MIB were sitting on the beach talking and there was a ship sailing toward the island on calm seas. Did we know before that that was not the Black Rock? I had assumed it was...but the BR arrived via hurricane. Guess it was one of the other ships/groups of people Jacob had brought to the island. Agree?

                                        I wondered aloud about that. I don't remember how far off the ship was from the Island, but it didn't seem like it was that far. Jacob and Nemesis could see it with the naked eye, so... That said, the weather on this Island -- very peculiar. When Lapidus was taking Sayid and Desmond (where the hell is Desmond?!?) to the freighter, they were flying through a storm one minute, and then the skies were clear the next.

                                        Of course, Jacob made it very clear that the Black Rock wasn't the beginning of his experiment, so it could have been a different ship.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #5.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:32 PM EDT
                                        Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                        Agree. Jacob and MIB both alluded to many coming to the island before and "it always ends the same" etc. And back in the day, traveling by ship was THE way to go.

                                        As far as assumptions, of course it was easy to first think that ship was THE Black Rock but back then from a distance that's probably just how most ships looked, Black Rock or otherwise - like when you see a white Civic on the freeway, and you think "oh there's my friend!" - and you get closer and it's totally not your friend's Civic!

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #5.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:35 PM EDT
                                        Foundling

                                        LOL! Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute scores two points for colorful analogy making.

                                        So in this case... hey, that's my friend's ominous slave ship. Oh wait... that's a different ominous slave ship. Dang it.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #5.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:52 PM EDT
                                        say what??

                                        That said, the weather on this Island -- very peculiar. When Lapidus was taking Sayid and Desmond (where the hell is Desmond?!?) to the freighter, they were flying through a storm one minute, and then the skies were clear the next.

                                        The weather changes could be caused by crossing "the radius" on the wrong heading, similar to night turning into day when Ajira 316 crash landed.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #5.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:38 PM EDT
                                        Inchiki

                                        Hey Foundling,

                                        #5.7 I took out "at least symbolically" from my post. Thought it was reaching

                                        Actually, it may turn out that you weren't reaching that far. As Scrambledeggs (#3) points out, there is a lot of knife symbology. I was looking back at the Wikipedia entry for Taweret and discovered that knives or daggers were important in her depiction. This comes from the site touregypt.net - Another way that Taweret was thought to scare away evil that could hurt a mother and child was through the use of magic. She was associated with the magic 'wand' or 'knife'. Other websites affirm the importance of the knife/wand.

                                        By the way, to some Taweret was the mother of Osiris (again, see the touregypt.net entry). Hello, Pinkcap, the previous sentence is directed at you because you seem to be in need of more mythology to think about ;). (Pinkcap #12.3 It's interesting that you think the MIB is Osiris. I always thought Jacob was more like Osiris because the underworld in Egytptian mythology is closer to our concept of heaven.) Refering to last week's questions, perhaps Taweret represents MIB's "crazy" mother . . . .

                                          #5.12 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:09 AM EDT
                                          pinkcap

                                          Hello Inchiki

                                          You're funny, but sadly it's true. There is so much of the Egyptian mythology incorporated into Lost, it's hard not to think of it. You are right that to some, Taweret was the mother of Set, but that thought was only held by the people of Thebes, a city in Egypt. Most articles on the subject say that Taweret was either the concubine or wife of Set. In one variation, it is said that as his wife, she had to restrain Set with chains and guard him. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards the MIB being more like Set - he's chained to the island. There are other reasons. He's the god of darkness, storms and chaos. Well, MIB is a dark stream that causes chaos and if he controls storms, then maybe he caused the storms that brought the Black Rock. Some versions say that Set is a man with the head of dog or jackal like creature. Some say he's a black boar that swallows the moon each month (we do see boars on the island, and we saw one on the ship). One account says that Anubis was his son, but most say that he was infertile and did not have children, even though he was married to the goddess of fertility, Tawaret. Could it be related to the fertility problems on the island?

                                          Someone last week wondered the same thing you did about Tawaret being the mother. I don't know about that, but what a messed up childhood the MIB had if she was crazy and looked like that statue. The mythology of ancient Egypt is a bit confusing because some of the gods changed roles throughout the years. Black Rock Steve has been doing some research on Egyptian mythology and knows much more than I do. That is why I was curious about his views on Set and Osiris.

                                          Osiris is the god of the underworld, but it is more like heaven. He has also been called the Lord of Love and 'he who is permanently benign and youthful.' He was married to his sister Isis. When Set, his brother, killed him, Set scattered his bones throughout the world so that he could not be resurrected. Isis collected all the bones and gave them to some other god who's name escapes me. He resurrected Osiris, but Osiris had to remain as the keeper of the underworld.

                                            #5.13 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:38 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            ranturn

                                            "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?

                                            To counteract all the references to God. And there were alot of them. One of the prevalent themes for tonight seemed to be God vs Devil. Good vs. Evil. And being that Richard was a religious man, this theme fit in nicely.

                                            Another theme that I saw tonight: Love Lost. Your heart had to go out to Richard upon losing Isabella. And when he was grieving, I immediately thought of Sawyer and the wrenching scene where he loses Juliet's hand in the shaft. But there are others who have lost love:

                                            Daniel - Charlotte, Claire - Aaron, Sawyer - His parents & many more.

                                            Random thoughts:

                                            Cheers for Hurley for being able to help Richard by speaking with Isabella. He is becoming a very cool cat.

                                            Mr. Whitfield = Mr. Widmore?

                                            "It's good to see you out of those chains" - Great line once again.

                                            I thought the wild boar (or was it a pig) roasting was a good analogy for MIB's behavior. He's a real pig, isn't he?

                                            I must have missed Richard reaching for the medicine from the doctor. Because when he looked down into his hand, the medicine was there. And he looked surprised. I at first had thought the necklace had turned into the medicine. (Jacob's influence?)

                                            Alot of symbolism tonight too. The red wine in the bottle – a symbol of blood. Great symbolism for MIB. Because if he is free, there will be bloodshed. And he smashes the bottle of wine. Foretelling of the future? And now we know, the island is a CORK! Congrats to whoever came up with the answer!

                                            I have two more questions that I am curious to hear everyone's comments on:

                                            Why did he bury the necklace? To bury his memories of his beloved wife?

                                            Why didn't Smokey kill Richard on the Black Rock? He killed everyone else. Great episode and it was a long time in coming.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #6 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT
                                            Steve Watts

                                            Why did he bury the necklace? To bury his memories of his beloved wife?

                                            I think that was a symbolic gesture. Nemesis was offering him a personal reward: the return of his wife. Jacob was telling him to ignore that empty promise and help him protect the world from Nemesis escaping it. Burying the necklace was symbolic of him rejecting the promise of his wife in order to fulfill a higher calling. When Jacob died and he lost faith, he went back to the empty promise. He was trying to retrieve the promise of his wife, as he was thinking about defecting to the one who promised it. In the end he came to peace with his duty and with his wife, so he wears it now.

                                            Also, I've thought this before, but tonight reinforced it. Can Nemesis not tell a direct lie? We've seen him being misleading plenty of times. But then, sometimes he very openly admits extremely damaging information, for no apparent reason. We keep seeing him openly admit to being the black smoke, to killing people, et cetera. There is really no reason for him to say any of these things! Especially when it makes Richard less inclined to trust him! I feel like, perhaps, he just can't say a direct, flat-out lie. Either that or he's terribly arrogant and relishes in his position as the monster, and likes to brag.

                                            • 8 votes
                                            #6.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:10 PM EDT
                                            BlackRock Steve

                                            Wonderful accurate comment and my answer too on burying the necklace...I took it as that exact symbolism.

                                            Can Nemesis not tell a direct lie? We've seen him being misleading plenty of times. But then, sometimes he very openly admits extremely damaging information, for no apparent reason. We keep seeing him openly admit to being the black smoke, to killing people, et cetera. There is really no reason for him to say any of these things!

                                            I've noticed that too and wondered if it is the "arrogance of evil" or are they making the comment that there is a "dual nature" even within evil itself...as in trying to be truthful but then slips back to the darkside.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #6.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:16 PM EDT
                                            Inchiki

                                            Hey Ranturn,

                                            Why didn't Smokey kill Richard on the Black Rock? He killed everyone else. I think Richard was spared for the same reason that Sawyer and the others were recruited--Smoke can't leave the Island on his own. I've wondered if Ben and Widmore knew about the portal to Tunisia, couldn't Smoke trick someone to open this gateway (or another) and escape? Maybe it has something to do with "free choice" why Smoke hasn't gone to Tunisia . . . .

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #6.3 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:19 PM EDT
                                            BlackRock Steve

                                            Ranturn....recall that MIB/Smokey is always doing his own "recruiting" of looking for his own "candidate" to kill Jacob...it must be a person who still has a "good" soul...remember the scene that smokey stops before Richard and you see the white "flashes" in the smoke as he "reads" Richard's life & soul...he selected him at that moment as his "candidate", which is why he spared him. Smokey saw and knew he could use Richard's love for Isabella as his leverage!

                                            Inchiki...

                                            Maybe it has something to do with "free choice" why Smoke hasn't gone to Tunisia . . .

                                            The rules for sure prevent Smokey from just leaving via the wheel and YES, I've assumed that there's some kind of "loophole" here too about getting one of Jacob's candidates to "set you free"!?

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #6.4 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:50 PM EDT
                                            Redchilipepper

                                            Hi Inchiki. Ben does know of the portal to Tunisa. If you remember when he turned the donkey wheel and landed in the desert. His jacket was torn, that was when he moved the island. So there has to be more holding him to the island. which has to be Jacob. I am thinking they are brothers that were cast to the island for some reason.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #6.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:23 AM EDT
                                            Anjillina

                                            Can Nemesis not tell a direct lie? We've seen him being misleading plenty of times. But then, sometimes he very openly admits extremely damaging information, for no apparent reason.

                                            I'm thinking some of you guys on here have never really been fooled or taken advantage of by a truly evil person (which is a good thing by the way). Guess the number one way to gain your confidence. To admit or confess something to you that would on the surface appear damaging. In other words, they gain your confidence by being "startlingly honest" with you. Except they aren't doing it out of goodness or sharing or anything else. They're doing it because they know precisely the effect it will have. A good person will think "wow, that's really damaging info - yet they trust me enough to tell me - we must have a bond. That's really cool that they trust me that much. Therefore, since he trusts me, I can trust him as well." Drops the defenses. Leaves you open for the kill. Been there, done that, fell for it more than once.

                                            • 7 votes
                                            #6.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:32 AM EDT
                                            pinkcap

                                            You're right Anjillina, but I'm sorry that you had to experience this yourself. We saw exactly what you are explaining in last week's episode. Sawyer and FLocke both told each other enough of the truth to gain the other's confidence. Sawyer did not tell FLocke his plans and I"m sure that FLocke did not tell Sawyer everything. The Nemsis is just a great con man and that's exactly what con men do to gain your trust.

                                              #6.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:18 AM EDT
                                              Pfemm

                                              Why did he bury the necklace? To bury his memories of his beloved wife?

                                              I thought he buried the necklace because he was unable to bury his actual wife. and being religious needed some form of closure to move forward.

                                              Why didn't Smokey kill Richard on the Black Rock?

                                              I was thinking that Richard was spared because Smokey decided he was the most malleable. he used his wife to break him down and then came in as a savior with water and freedom... in exchange for just a little favor.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #6.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:08 AM EDT
                                              T Bourlon

                                              "Ben does know of the portal to Tunisa. If you remember when he turned the donkey wheel and landed in the desert. His jacket was torn, that was when he moved the island. So there has to be more holding him to the island. which has to be Jacob."

                                              True, but here's a picky question. Christian told Locke to go down and push the wheel back in place. Of course, he also claimed he "spoke for Jacob," but we know that's not true. So, Nemesis MUST know about the wheel, AND how it works. And now that he's UnLocke, he should be physical enough to go there and just leave, but for some reason he needs a plane? I've been thinking he wants to "go home" to Tunisia, but maybe that's not home after all. Any thoughts?

                                                #6.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:28 PM EDT
                                                Foundling

                                                I'm thinking some of you guys on here have never really been fooled or taken advantage of by a truly evil person (which is a good thing by the way). Guess the number one way to gain your confidence. To admit or confess something to you that would on the surface appear damaging. In other words, they gain your confidence by being "startlingly honest" with you. Except they aren't doing it out of goodness or sharing or anything else. They're doing it because they know precisely the effect it will have. A good person will think "wow, that's really damaging info - yet they trust me enough to tell me - we must have a bond. That's really cool that they trust me that much. Therefore, since he trusts me, I can trust him as well." Drops the defenses. Leaves you open for the kill. Been there, done that, fell for it more than once.

                                                Anjillina...OMG, can we possibly have dated the exact same &#$*@% ?!?!?! LOL!

                                                However, seriously... excellent post. That's exactly where my mind went when I read Steve Watts' question. 'People' like that keep you on your toes and second guessing (and condemning) your own instincts and suspicions. Perfect strategy for MIB/Nem/FLocke.

                                                  #6.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:48 PM EDT
                                                  Anjillina

                                                  Haha Foundling! However, only one or two were male. The rest were female. Most interesting was a work situation. Silly in retrospect, but a big deal at the time. Alas, I'm old and jaded now and suspicious of everyone.

                                                    #6.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:16 PM EDT
                                                    Foundling

                                                    That would be a little thing we call "wisdom". :-) Hard earned.

                                                      #6.12 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:36 PM EDT
                                                      Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                      True, but here's a picky question. Christian told Locke to go down and push the wheel back in place. Of course, he also claimed he "spoke for Jacob," but we know that's not true.

                                                      How do we know, exactly? We're not forgetting that Christian isn't MIB/Dead Locke, are we? Because as I previously reminded y'all they appeared in the same scene together (with Sun and Frank). Either that or it's a HUGE mistake by the writers to mislead us. Just wanted to throw that out there again.

                                                      The assumption I assume (ha) is in retrospect his cronying up with Claire and her subsequent (though how much later we DON'T know) cronying up with "her friend" Dead Locke who she WON'T call Locke. Christian has appeared too benevolent in his appearances IMO to be construed as acting in MIB's interest...but we shall see.

                                                      I miss Christian (or whatever he IS) and hope that's one of the next "loose ends" we'll see addressed (if any actually are for us suckers)!

                                                        #6.13 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:54 PM EDT
                                                        Sabastian Palpatine

                                                        "....Either that or he's terribly arrogant and relishes in his position as the monster, and likes to brag."

                                                        Steve,

                                                        I think that MIB is a pridefull, arrogant liar but he's also ignorant of the fact that he's being used by the Universe for good.

                                                        Consider this, Both Dark and Light are used to move the consciousness of Mankind upward and onward towards enlightenment (or to the final apex of mental and spiritual "progress"). There's no doubt in my mind that MIB represents the Dark side of the twins (him and Jacob) however his selfish desire still serves a higher purpose (which MIB is unaware of) to bring Man closer to the source of all.

                                                        Darkness then is not a matter of morality but of ignorance, knowledge = Light. Those who we call "evil" do not lack morals they simply lack wisdom and are in need of someone to shed some light on them or to shine some Light in their minds or thought process.

                                                        Jacob touched on it last night in his conversation with Richard. He doesn't want to see MIB condemned to Hell for eternity. He wants to show him the truth about Mankind and about MIB himself (that Light eventually wins over Darkness in all conscious beings).

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        #6.14 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:02 PM EDT
                                                        jograyghost

                                                        I was a little grossed out by the pig eating. I hope it wasn't the boar that ate the body

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #6.15 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:32 PM EDT
                                                        Foundling

                                                        Ew.

                                                          #6.16 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:44 PM EDT
                                                          scrambledeggs

                                                          foundling - well said! blech

                                                            #6.17 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:57 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            Syntactic Tree

                                                            Steve, in honor of Biden, #%$&% fantastic should have been an option. ;)

                                                            A brilliant episode that had my wife and me going, "Ah ha, see!" to each other the whole time. Ricardo's history was incredibly touching, and a coherent addition to the plot. Then again, I love anything in Spanish. Although they were a little off with accent geographically, that couldn't have been helped; Nestor Carbonell has shown himself to be a terrific actor through this series, and he proved it tonight.

                                                            • 9 votes
                                                            Reply#7 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:07 PM EDT
                                                            Steve Watts

                                                            I'd say this episode was a big @!$%#ing deal.

                                                            • 11 votes
                                                            #7.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:12 PM EDT
                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                            OK, now....in the true spirit of Lost and the final season, I really think we need to add BFD as the new Top Category in the episode Poll above "Fantastic" and see how many votes the last 5 episodes get!??

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #7.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:26 PM EDT
                                                            Twinkle391

                                                            Absolutely #%$&% hysterical! Wouldn't you like to hear Jack, Ben or Locke say that!

                                                            Oh Oh, maybe Sawyer's new line could be "#%$&% Son-of-a-bitch!"

                                                            Again, I think Crestor did a #%$&% fantastic job of acting. This was his moment to shine and he did.

                                                            I'll be doing this all day.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #7.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:16 AM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            scrambledeggs

                                                            we got confirmation that Sun, Jack & Hurley are 3 of the 6 candidates.

                                                            i'm dying to figure out what the white crystal medication was, but got to hit the sack. will fall asleep laughing about Hurley the angel-dude!

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #8 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:08 PM EDT
                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                            We also got another confirmation and answer to a long debate....RICHARD was the LONE SURVIVOR of the wreck of the BlackRock! In past seasons, we had theorized that perhaps many of the Others were "descendants" of the BlackRock...well, only if Richard is their father!(and of course that starts the debate of who the mother would be...but I digress). So, the Others appear to be 2 distinct groups in terms of their ancestry: those brought specifically to the island as "candidates" or for a purpose, and those who are the other survivors (non-candidates), and perhaps their descendants...as in Charles Widmore!? As we discovered today, even Illana turns out to be a descendant of a past candidate or game player.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #8.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:04 AM EDT
                                                            sweetpeas2ds

                                                            I thought Ilana said it was either Sun or Jin, she didn't know which one. Did I miss where it was determined Sun is the Kwon in question?

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #8.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:33 AM EDT
                                                            Samhill

                                                            As we discovered today, even Illana turns out to be a descendant of a past candidate or game player.

                                                            Help me out here...maybe I'm just too tired. When did we learn that she is a descendant of a past candidate or game player????

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #8.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:37 AM EDT
                                                            pinkcap

                                                            Samhill

                                                            Yesterday, I posted a link to an interview with the woman who plays Ilana. She was asked her last name and she during the interview, remembered a last name on the badge she flashed in the airport when boarding Ajira flight 316. It is a name we have heard on the show before, but it's not a real story changer. It could be a spoiler, it may not. She may not be remembering the correct name, she could be teasing us, or she does not know the shows history because I don't think it's something they would want to slip out. Here's the link:

                                                            http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/03/losts_zuleikha_robinson_on.html

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #8.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:28 AM EDT
                                                            pinkcap

                                                            Black Rock Steve

                                                            Great observation That is something that has been discussed and questioned. Now we jsut have to find out how the others came to be.

                                                              #8.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:31 AM EDT
                                                              ranturn

                                                              So many questions still unanswered: If Jacob is responsible for bringing people to the island, than what part did he play with the Dharma Initiative? Why is it that no one before Richard has survived on the island? Does MIB keep killing everyone? And if so, why didn't he kill all the castaways (that aren't candidates) when they arrived and the Others that were with Ben?

                                                              One thing that keeps bothering me about the Others: When we first saw them in Season 1, they were always disheveled, shoeless & downright nasty. (I keep thinking about Tom - I think that was his name). What has really changed with them? They didn't seem that way at the Temple.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #8.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:52 AM EDT
                                                              Suzy Q 184

                                                              ranturn, my theory to your question is just that they WANT to appear dirty and disheveled. Remember how Kate found the fake facial hair and such when Claire went looking for the station where she'd been held? I think it might have been a way to throw new people off the idea that they actually have their own nice little village and instead are surviving in the wild like everyone else.

                                                              Heck, maybe their moms just make them wear their "playclothes" when they're running around in the jungle! ;)

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #8.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:37 AM EDT
                                                              Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                              Yesterday, I posted a link to an interview with the woman who plays Ilana. She was asked her last name and she during the interview, remembered a last name on the badge she flashed in the airport when boarding Ajira flight 316. It is a name we have heard on the show before, but it's not a real story changer. It could be a spoiler, it may not. She may not be remembering the correct name, she could be teasing us, or she does not know the shows history because I don't think it's something they would want to slip out. Here's the link:

                                                              http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/03/losts_zuleikha_robinson_on.html

                                                              Thanks for the refresher Pinkcap! Wow if she's accurate, that would explain her not having a father figure. Gotta go back and look for that badge now!! Sorry if my self-edited response "spoiled" anything for anyone.

                                                                #8.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
                                                                OnlyChild

                                                                One thing that keeps bothering me about the Others: When we first saw them in Season 1, they were always disheveled, shoeless & downright nasty. (I keep thinking about Tom - I think that was his name). What has really changed with them? They didn't seem that way at the Temple.

                                                                No, they didn't seem that way when Flocke was leading them along the beach with Richard either. And then he yelled at them. Maybe the nasty ones were finished off by Sawyer, Sayid, Jin, and Hurley when they had that gunfight -I don't remember the episode. Hurley drove over one with the old volkswagon van, remember? Sawyer just plain executed Tom (?) And I thought Tom had redeeming qualities. Then Widmore's executioners probably finished off some nasty ones at the barracks. Smokey took out the stubborn ones at the temple. In any case, they seem like a sorry bunch now.

                                                                  #8.9 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:36 AM EDT
                                                                  Lori-1673701

                                                                  I thought Ilana said it was either Sun or Jin, she didn't know which one. Did I miss where it was determined Sun is the Kwon in question?

                                                                  sweetpeas2d - When Jack & company were on the beach I believe it was Sun who told Jack the three were canidates. Not sure how she found out she was one though. I think this was said after Richard ran off

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #8.10 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:41 AM EDT
                                                                  scrambledeggs

                                                                  I thought I heard Ilana say on the beach Sun, Jack and Hurley are candidates to replace Jacob. Don't have DVR - could someone check on this?

                                                                    #8.11 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:02 PM EDT
                                                                    Lori-1673701

                                                                    No DVR either but someone said it on the beach

                                                                      #8.12 - Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:41 PM EDT
                                                                      belle42

                                                                      I think Sun said something to that effect (she said you, me, and him were candidates), meaning Sun assumes it's her, not her husband, that is the candidate.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #8.13 - Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
                                                                      say what??

                                                                      Ilana knew "Kwon" was a candidate and told Sun she didn't know if it was Sun or Jin she was supposed to protect, so she would protect both of them. Maybe that's why Sun said she is a candidate.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #8.14 - Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:14 PM EDT
                                                                      Lori-1673701

                                                                      If it was indeed Sun who said it, she is mighty confident saying she IS a candidate. She could have at least said 'You, Hurley and me or Jin'.

                                                                      Hopefully in the next recap episode it will be confimed as when it was confirmed with Jack & Hurley in a recap just before thet met back up with Ricard...

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #8.15 - Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:59 AM EDT
                                                                      minklady

                                                                      I just went back to watch the scene again. Richard, Lapidus, Illana, Sun, Jack, and Hurley are sitting around the campfire.

                                                                      Jack asks: Candidates for What?

                                                                      Sun says to Jack: To replace Jacob (then looks at Illana) She said I was one of them, and so are you and so is Hurley.

                                                                      If Illana is confused as to which Kwon is on her list from Jacob, I would think that she would have spoken up at that point to clarify.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #8.16 - Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:14 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      Inchiki

                                                                      Once again, Hurley proves that Island would do well if he was chosen as its guardian. First he tells Jack to step back—very satisfying since Jack was an a**. He helps Richard in a time of crisis, reuniting him with Isabella. But does this mean that we don’t need Miles to commune with the dead? Or was Isabella a manifestation of Jacob?

                                                                      So,

                                                                      • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell? Like many of his era, the Church is a large influence on his life and outlook. Richard is seeking forgiveness and redemption. There are some things that are so engrained in us, no matter how long we live.
                                                                      • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob? Yin/yang, buddy, yin yang.
                                                                      • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates? Jacob stated that he would do little, if anything, with the people that are chosen because they must decide for themselves. Which makes Richard very important.

                                                                      Anybody look at the chapter/verse that Richard's Bible was open to?

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#9 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:10 PM EDT
                                                                      Syntactic Tree

                                                                      Anybody look at the chapter/verse that Richard's Bible was open to?

                                                                      Luke, I think. I don't recall the verse... I'll fast forward the tape tomorrow if someone else doesn't get to it tonight.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #9.1 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:14 PM EDT
                                                                      BlackRock Steve

                                                                      I thought it was Luke 3:4, but haven't checked my bible to see if I'm right.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #9.2 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:18 PM EDT
                                                                      blackwidow1

                                                                      It was Luke 4:24 - "And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country."

                                                                      The chapter is about Jesus' temptation by Satan.

                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                      #9.3 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:24 PM EDT
                                                                      pinkcap

                                                                      I thought it was Luke 4:37. I guess we have some re-watching to do.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #9.4 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:50 PM EDT
                                                                      ranturn

                                                                      I have Luke 4:37 too

                                                                      4:37 And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #9.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:44 AM EDT
                                                                      blackwidow1

                                                                      Yes, at the top of the page of Richard's Bible it reads 4:37. The verses we see on the page are 24 thru 29.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #9.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:56 AM EDT
                                                                      Inchiki

                                                                      Thanks for the assist, y'all. It may be the lateness of the evening, but I haven't figured out how relevant this was to Richard's story from a thematic standpoint.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #9.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:16 AM EDT
                                                                      kcjhawk

                                                                      I didn't see the verse #, but I did see the words and they were about the prophet in his own land.

                                                                        #9.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:39 PM EDT
                                                                        LightOwl8

                                                                        A prophet is one who speaks God's truth to the people; they interpret current events, may predict future events, and draw each person's attention to their own behavior, calling them back to what God asks of them. According to this definition, Richard could be filling a prophetic role for Jacob - speaking for him and being his voice, trying to guide peoples' behavior and choices.

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #9.9 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:13 PM EDT
                                                                        pinkcap

                                                                        Light Owl

                                                                        Great explanation.

                                                                          #9.10 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:27 PM EDT
                                                                          LightOwl8

                                                                          pinkcap,

                                                                          Thanks! Can't take full credit - I had good teachers.

                                                                            #9.11 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:03 PM EDT
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            Herbcules74
                                                                            • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?

                                                                            I don't believe the island is literally hell. If it turns out that they all really died in the plane crash and that they have been in hell all along that would really be a cop out.

                                                                            • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

                                                                            MIB's own little private joke.

                                                                            • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

                                                                            He was recruited to be a proxy to people on the Island. He wasn't recruited to interact with possible replacements for Jacob

                                                                            This episode was pretty good. We certainly got a lot of answers....but I was hoping for more. A few things I noticed from this episode. When Jacob first met with Ilana and asked her to help she was seriously injured and bandaged. When she agrees to help and Jacob is explaining how he wants her to protect the candidates the bandages are off and she is healed. Did Jacob heal her?

                                                                            Jacob said he brought the Black Rock to the Island. Did Jacob cause the storm that brought the ship so far inland? If he did, does that mean that Jacob is responsible for destroying his own home, the statue. Try explaining that to your home owners insurance. If JAcob brought the Black Rock to the Island to prove to Nemesis that all people aren't corruptable why did he let Nemesis just kill everyone. Was this phase of the game just about Richard?

                                                                            Nemesis appeared to Richard as Isabella to convince Richard he was dead and in hell. Then he shows up and "rescues" Richard and tried to convince him that the devil has his wife.

                                                                            In some of the past posts some people were talking about a spolier they heard that said the Island is a four letter word with no a's or e's in it. Jacob described the Island as a "CORK" holding in the "evil" from escaping into the world. Is this the mysterious for letter word?

                                                                            What is that place were Nemesis meets with Richard. It looks like there is a stone bench there. It almost looks like a church pew to me.

                                                                            I found the meeting of Richard and Jacob very interesting. When Jacob brought Richard out into the ocean and he was dunking him I got the strange feeling that he was "baptizing" Richard. The conversation they had after made Richard seem like he was God. He told Richard that he brought people to the Island and gave them a clean slate. He wanted to see them choose right from wrong without him having to tell them what right and wrong was.

                                                                            Only 7 episodes left. I'm getting excited and bummed out at the same time. Black Rock Steve posted a great article on "why we watch lost". I agree with the author of that article 100%. In a book I once read the main character tells his teacher that the seeking for an anser to a question sometimes counts more then the answer itself, the striving counts more then the gain. I believe this is true. I don't know how the producers pulled it off but they actually made their fans think. What other show has ever had it's fans online all hours of the night reading historical and religous documents, had them going out and reading books just because they think they will find an answer to something they saw in the show. I look back to all that I have learned since Lost premiered and see that even if I don't come away with all the answers I am at least coming away with knowledge.

                                                                            Good night all,

                                                                            Herb

                                                                            • 5 votes
                                                                            #10 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:20 PM EDT
                                                                            pinkcap

                                                                            Herbcules

                                                                            I too wondered about Ilana and her face. Did Jacob heal her? I don't know. He was wearing black leather gloves while he was with her. I suppose he could have taken them off to heal her. Another thought is that there was a lapse of time between him asking her and her being ready to leave the hospital.

                                                                            Yes, cork is the mysterious four letter word. I know Jacob said that the cork was to hold the evil in, but I also wonder if it holds in the electomagnetism too. Eloise said that the energy at the Lamp Post was linked to other pockets of energy throughout the world, including the one on the island.

                                                                            Good analogy about the baptizing of Richard. He wanted to be absolved of his sins, and this was symbolic of Jacob doing what the priest wouldn't do. His giving the candidates free will is very much like God. Jacob also gave the candidates a guide, Richard, to help them see the path that Jacob would like them to take. We are given guides in life - i.e. parents, the Bible, clergy, to help us.

                                                                              #10.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:13 AM EDT
                                                                              ranturn

                                                                              Wasn't there a scene way back when with Charlie getting dunked in the water like that?

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #10.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:07 AM EDT
                                                                              BlackRock Steve

                                                                              but I also wonder if it holds in the electomagnetism too.

                                                                              Pinkcap...thought you'd like to see a quote that I've had sitting here in my Lost notes for 2+ years:

                                                                              From Damon Lindelof, 2007: “Let's just say, theoretically, inside the Island there was this ball of electromagnetic energy. And, let's just say, there was a group of people—we’ll call them the DHARMA Initiative—sort of drilling around, and doing general futzing on the Island, and they accidentally drilled into this hole, and suddenly that entire ball of electromagnetism became untapped, so they built this Swan station above it, in an effort that it wouldn’t get completely out of control. So, by plugging that hole, you don’t actually do away with all the electromagnetism. It's still there.” ....sounds like a “cork” to me!

                                                                              • 5 votes
                                                                              #10.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:18 AM EDT
                                                                              NCL70506

                                                                              Hi Herbcules - I had some of the same thoughts as you, particularly if Jacob healed Ilana, the real purpose of bringing the Black Rock to the Island, and the rather hard core "baptizing" of Richard. By the way, I think it's 7 episodes left until the series finale, which is supposed to be 2 hours long. Good news!

                                                                              I have been trying to process this episode because frankly, it freaked me out a little bit. I was thinking for a while there that the Island really was hell. Then I was thinking crap, everybody is dead.

                                                                              At the beginning of the episode with Richard on the beach with Ilana, Jack, etc., he told them that they were all in hell. Did he really still believe that after all those years? Jacob told him in the past that he was not the devil and that Richard was not in hell. Richard followed Jacob faithfully for centuries after that. But, it seems that with Jacob’s death and Richard’s realization that Jacob did not tell him everything about his plans, Richard automatically went back to what Nemesis told him in the beginning - that he was in hell. That was a quick turnaround.

                                                                              It was very clever of the Man in Black to evaluate Richard on the ship, then appear as Isabella who tells him that they are both dead and in hell. Richard did not assume they were in hell; it was Isabella that told him they are in hell. Later, MIB confirms to Richard that they are in hell. If this had not been suggested to him, Richard might have just thought the ship crashed on an Island and he was a castaway. (Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale . . .)

                                                                              Now, if Jacob bothered to tell Ilana to take the candidates to the Temple, then why couldn’t he just tell her the rest of the plan, instead of telling her to ask Richard? With something this important, she needs all the information!

                                                                              And does Richard know what to do now? He has been blindsided by Jacob’s death, the Temple is destroyed, and Nemesis is loose on the Island looking for a getaway. I don’t know that Richard has a plan for this complicated scenario.

                                                                              Jacob told Richard that he brought his ship to the Island. Richard was not originally supposed to be on that ship; we saw he was selected by that British guy Whitfield to go. So, I am wondering if Jacob picked the ship to bring to the Island as just another group of possible candidates / players in this game, or did he pick the ship because he knew Richard was going to be on it? To me, it seemed like Jacob did not know Richard when they encountered each other on the beach. So if Jacob did not directly influence Richard’s life to end up on the Island, maybe he just got lucky with bringing that ship in.

                                                                              Jacob asked Richard who gave him the knife. Well, let’s see. Everyone else on the Island is dead, so it must be the Man in Black, and who else would have it. Come on!

                                                                              Man in Black told Richard that the devil took his body and his humanity. Hmmm. More information please! From what I have read on spoiler sites, episode 15 should give us some insight into MIB and Jacob’s beginnings. I sure hope there is an episode sometime that tells us about this.

                                                                              Last thought: Jacob told Richard that no one enters the Statue unless he invites them in. I don’t recall Jacob inviting Locke/MIB into the Statue just before he was killed. Maybe that rule changed once MIB found the loophole.

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #10.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:17 AM EDT
                                                                              sarah-1604552

                                                                              The dunking scene also reminded me of Sayid being held underwater at the temple. Not sure of the significance, though...

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #10.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:20 AM EDT
                                                                              Anjillina

                                                                              When Jacob said he brought the ship to the island, all I thought was that Jacob was trying to save them. Nemesis whipped up the storm and would have killed them all - Jacob diverted them to the island to try to save them. Nemesis still killed all but Richard. Just my thought at the time. And I really feel like Nemesis didn't kill Richard because he was afraid too because Richard's faith was so strong. I think there are repercussions for him for killing a truly good person.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #10.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:40 AM EDT
                                                                              pinkcap

                                                                              Anjillina, I find myself agreeing with you again today. Those were my thoughts exactly.

                                                                              Black Rock Steve, Thanks for the information. Your ability to remember these things amazes me. Who needs google when we have you? When we were trying to guess at the name for the island in previous posts, I looked up the word cork for additional meanings and it's a name for a character encoding program for computers. It pairs up characters from a given repertoire with something else, usually a sequence of natural numbers. It sounds a little like the system Jacob uses for his candidates. Of course, this might only be a coincidence.

                                                                              NCL - It does seem odd that Jacob directed Ilana to get instructions from Richard when he says he does not know anything. It could be that he does know it, he just hasn't connected the dots yet. These people don't communicate well with each other and maybe now that they have no choice, they will start communicating. I think they all hold a piece to the puzzle and if they put their heads together, they might actually come up with the answer.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #10.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                              ranturn

                                                                              I think they all hold a piece to the puzzle and if they put their heads together, they might actually come up with the answer.

                                                                              pinkcap - I like that. And when the pieces are all put together, what image will we see?

                                                                                #10.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:08 AM EDT
                                                                                pinkcap

                                                                                ranturn, that is the million dollar question.

                                                                                  #10.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:43 AM EDT
                                                                                  JohnBoy813

                                                                                  NCL: Your comment about FLock and Ben not being invited in but still came into the statue. The only reason Richard stayed out was because he respected Jacob's wishes. I also have a rule that no one can come into my house without being invited, but that will not stop a burgler from coming in and doing whatever they want. It was only a demand/request from Jacob that kept people out up until that point.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #10.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:56 PM EDT
                                                                                  Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                                                  Jacob asked Richard who gave him the knife. Well, let’s see. Everyone else on the Island is dead, so it must be the Man in Black, and who else would have it. Come on!

                                                                                  Simple yet brilliant observation NCL! Of simple yet sloppy dialogue!

                                                                                  OR, was Jacob playing dumb altogether? Whoo, MORE questions to keep us distracted from the wayward plot!

                                                                                    #10.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:19 PM EDT
                                                                                    NCL70506

                                                                                    JohnBoy - I see your point. I was just thinking that maybe is was one of the "rules" but it no longer applied after MIB found his loophole.

                                                                                    pinkcap - Hopefully they will be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together, and we will see the resulting picture in the series finale!

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #10.12 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
                                                                                    Kylemmie

                                                                                    Per the 'who gave you the knife' dialogue. I saw two possible reasons for the question.

                                                                                    1) To see if Ricardo would answer honestly so Jacob had an idea of what sort of man he was talking to.

                                                                                    2) MIB can change appearance. Jacob knew it was the MIB, but wanted to know what current form MIB was using in an attempt to manipulate Ricardo so he (Jacob) would know how to handle the situation better.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #10.13 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:23 PM EDT
                                                                                    Susanaree

                                                                                    Was "who gave you the knife" the first thing Jacob said to Richard? I don't remember, but if it was, he knew he had to speak first, and said the first thing that popped into his head. Not brilliant, but accomplishes the task.

                                                                                    Just a guess.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #10.14 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:08 PM EDT
                                                                                    LightOwl8

                                                                                    Water is symbolic, but water symbolism is not all the same. Water can bring life or it can bring death. In Catholic theology, a person cannot be "re-baptized", because once is sufficient.

                                                                                    Jacob was not dunking Richard with an air of absolution or forgiveness - he was doing it to show Richard that he wasn't dead yet. I saw Richard's dunking mainly as a way to get him to face up to his own mortality and continuing will to live.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #10.15 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:32 PM EDT
                                                                                    belle42

                                                                                    The closest thing the dunking reminded me of was Fezzick dunking Inigo to sober him up (Princess Bride). Granted, Jacob isn't Andre the Giant, but the idea of snapping someone out of a funk is the same.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #10.16 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:55 PM EDT
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    Aqualeo

                                                                                    The Big Questions:

                                                                                    • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?

                                                                                    It can't be Hell. That was just all metaphore because Richardo was so religious

                                                                                    • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

                                                                                    No matter which side they are on, if the other leader gets a chance to talk to you, they have already been able to persuade you

                                                                                    • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

                                                                                    Because Jacob needed to be present to touch each candidate. Anyone else Richard can deal with.

                                                                                    A really good episode about a long time mysterious guy. Did anyone else find it weird that they useda flashback to explain Richard's story in a season where they are not doing that?

                                                                                      Reply#11 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:25 PM EDT
                                                                                      ranturn

                                                                                      I had read that Richard's story would be the only flashback we would see this season.

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #11.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:49 AM EDT
                                                                                      Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute
                                                                                      • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

                                                                                      No matter which side they are on, if the other leader gets a chance to talk to you, they have already been able to persuade you

                                                                                      Although when Sayid stabbed NemLocke and made no incision it became clear he wasn't your average red-blooded "leader" in comparison to Jacob, who spoke before his stabbing and then real bleeding. I think there's a difference, and something more to that "stab before he speaks" protocol we have yet to see.

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      #11.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:24 PM EDT
                                                                                      T Bourlon

                                                                                      I think Sayid hadn't chosen a side yet, and then UnLocke said "Hello, Sayid" before being stabbed. On the other hand, Ben HAD chosen a side, probably a long time ago. It's also possible that Jacob allowed himself to die/be killed because he knew his replacement was on the Island, so all would be well. He hasn't exactly left yet, anyway.

                                                                                      So, the name of the Island is "Cork?" Well, I guess that's better than "Bomb!"

                                                                                        #11.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:53 PM EDT
                                                                                        Tweety-1716679

                                                                                        T Bourlon, Maybe someone has pointed this out, but here is my theory on this.

                                                                                        In the spirit of all of the Star Wars analogies, I think that in the same manner that Jacob allowed his death was quite analogous to the way that Obi-wan held his light saber in front of his face as Darth Vader struck him down. In his infinite wisdom, Obi-wan understood that he would still be able to guide Luke along his path to eventually eliminate the two Siths of the dark side. Jacob with his incredible foresight, knew that he would still be able to guide at least some of his "candidates" through Hurley.

                                                                                          #11.4 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:23 PM EDT
                                                                                          Superman2001

                                                                                          Also, it's important to understand that just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean that they always choose to exercise that power or authority. Just because you CAN speak a foreign language doesn't mean that you always have to. So Jacob might be able to see future events, but that doesn't mean that he necessarily has to exercise that ability.

                                                                                            #11.5 - Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:28 PM EDT
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            pinkcap

                                                                                            I thought this was a great episode. It answered some of our questions, but of course, not all of them. Richard has always been such a mystery. I felt so bad for Richard. Here was a good man who loves his wife and desperately wants to save her. He accidentally kills the doctor and his wife dies. His remorse is obvious, yet the priest will not give him absolution before he is to die. No wonder he believes he's in hell. Speaking of hell,

                                                                                            "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell? We're taught that if we do bad things we will end up in hell. Richard did what is considered to be the worst thing you can do, kill a man. It was accidental, but he does feel he deserves to be punished. The smoke monster stopped in front of Richard and we saw those flashes of light. That's when smokey looks into a person's soul and finds their fears and desires. He knew that Richard feared going to hell and he knew that his heart's desire was to be with his wife. The smoke monster uses what's in your heart to manipulate. He makes promises he can't keep. He wants off the island and will do anything and say anything to get off it.

                                                                                            There was a blue butterfly that entered the ship before the apparition of Isabella appeared. A blue butterfly is a wish granter or malicious spirit.

                                                                                            Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob? I'm not sure. When Jacob was killed by Ben, he spoke before the knife entered his body, so it can't be part of the ritual to kill each other. My best guess is that they both feared the killer being talked out of doing it.

                                                                                            If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates? He didn't interact with all of the candidates. Maybe he interacted with the previous candidates, but the only Oceanic survivor he interacted with in the beginning was Locke. It's just recently that he has been interacting with the present candidates. Maybe it was one of those in name only titles that made Richard feel useful until the time came when Jacob needed him to fulfill his purpose.

                                                                                            Now we know why Richard recognized the MIB after Jacob was killed. It was the same thing the MIB said to him after releasing him from his chains.

                                                                                            I do have one question, if smokey is unleashed on the world and if Isabella is right when she says if he escapes, we all go to hell, what will happen in the sideways world now that the island is on the bottom of the ocean? Will we see smokey unleashed in the world? Will their lives take a downward spiral soon?

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            Reply#12 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:28 PM EDT
                                                                                            Bordsox-999133

                                                                                            Wait, in flashbacks we have seen Jacob interact with Sawyer after his parents funeral, Kate when she stals something as a kid, Jack after his first solo surgery, and Locke when he did the nosedive. Thoes were all quite a while ago. The recent ones were Sayid and Hurley.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #12.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:33 AM EDT
                                                                                            BlackRock Steve

                                                                                            I do have one question, if smokey is unleashed on the world and if Isabella is right when she says if he escapes, we all go to hell, what will happen in the sideways world...

                                                                                            Pinkcap....Isabella was giving an old "Catholic" version, but if based upon MIB's sad story to Sawyer (I was a man like you once) and Kate and he is Osiris, then if he escapes his role on the island it is Armageddon time, end of world and Final Judgment!

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #12.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:24 AM EDT
                                                                                            pinkcap

                                                                                            Bordsox-

                                                                                            Thank you. I was reading the question wrong. I thought Steve asked why Richard was asked to be a proxy and why Richard interacted with the candidates. It didn't make sense to me at the time, but that's what I get for answering a question when it's late.

                                                                                            Black Rock

                                                                                            Armageddon is the same as doomsday and the numbers are said to be the Valenzetti equation which is the formula to predict doomsday.

                                                                                            It's interesting that you think the MIB is Osiris. I always thought Jacob was more like Osiris because the underworld in Egytptian mythology is closer to our concept of heaven. I always thought that the MIB was closer to Set who was the god of darkness and chaos and was responsible for the death of his brother Osiris. I'm just curious as to why you think differently.

                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                            #12.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:20 AM EDT
                                                                                            Samhill

                                                                                            I'm not sure. When Jacob was killed by Ben, he spoke before the knife entered his body, so it can't be part of the ritual to kill each other. My best guess is that they both feared the killer being talked out of doing it.

                                                                                            I was also thinking about the fact that Jacob spoke to Ben before Ben stabbed him, but Ben stabbing him did kill him. So if the only reason they say this is so that their nemesis can't talk their killer out of doing it, how is that when Sayid stabbed Nemesis it had no affect at all. It appears to me now that Nemesis can't be killed. The "body" of John Locke that he is currently occupying is just a hollow shell? But Jacob's body was a real body????

                                                                                              #12.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:10 AM EDT
                                                                                              kcjhawk

                                                                                              I thought Nemesis could not be killed either, until last week when Locke was having his private talk with Sawyer about why he killed the Temple folk. He said it was kill or be killed and "I don't want to die." I thought this was a clue that he could be killed. Sayid was already "claimed" when he tried to stab Nemesis, so this may be why it didn't work. Only someone "good" can kill Nemesis. Though I do like the idea that you'd have to get him out of his Locke shell to get to the real Nemesis and kill him.

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #12.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:58 PM EDT
                                                                                              say what??

                                                                                              Only someone "good" can kill Nemesis.

                                                                                              Only someone stealthy and crafty enough to sneak up from behind and knock him out and then stab him in the chest can kill him. Otherwise it's virtually impossible to do it before Nemesis (or Jacob) speaks.

                                                                                                #12.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:09 PM EDT
                                                                                                pinkcap

                                                                                                I wonder if the smoke monster can be killed. There is sin in the world. It was unleashed by Adam and Eve's actions in the Garden of Eden. I don't think you can kill evil, you can combat it, but you can't remove it from the world. I think that evil exists in a balance with good. It's a yin/yang balance that has to be maintained. Keeping smokey on the island keeps the world balanced. If smokey was unleashed on the world, his evil would dominate and wipe out the good. As a result, the end of the world would arrive sooner rather than later. That is why the numbers represent the equation that predicts doomsday.

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #12.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                T Bourlon

                                                                                                This may sound terribly "Harry Potterish," but I think that one of those realities WILL get wiped out, the question is which one? Perhaps if NemLocke gets off the Island he will wipe out the world in THAT reality, leaving the flashsideways reality intact. Of course, it makes more sense if it's the OTHER way around, but lots about Lost doesn't make sense. Btw, have you ever thought about how much the Smoke Monster looks like a Snake?

                                                                                                "For neither can live while the other survives" - J.K. Rowling

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #12.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:59 PM EDT
                                                                                                NCL70506

                                                                                                Samhill - Your statement: "The "body" of John Locke that he is currently occupying is just a hollow shell? But Jacob's body was a real body?"

                                                                                                This is an interesting question. It seems like Jacob was a real person and had a real body based on the fact that he bled and died after he was stabbed by Ben. But, he also has some kind of deity substance to him as well. It is curious, though, that if Jacob and MIB were both on the Island from the beginning, why would MIB not have a human body also? But then MIB has said that he is "not a dead man" and something like he was once a man who experienced love and loss. Having the ability to turn into smoke and appear as dead people indicates he has some kind of higher being substance as well.

                                                                                                I wonder if Jacob and MIB both started on the Island the same, meaning both as humans and having knowledge of "the rules." If that is the case, Jacob has managed to stay human and in the body we have always seen him in. Something must have happened to MIB to make him leave/lose his human body, gain the ability to appear as a smoke monster, gain the ability to appear as dead people, "infect" people, and eventually sort of break the rules by finding his loophole. MIB appears to have been way more active on the Island than Jacob was. Jacob kind of just sat back and watched. I wonder where Jacob goes now? He is still on the Island appearing to Hurley, but his job as protector of the Island is kind of over. What happens to him if he is replaced by one of the candidates? Maybe he will go to heaven, or wherever his home is.

                                                                                                Anyway, I just hope they tell us about the origins of Jacob and MIB and the Island itself. And I hope it's really good, because we have been speculating about all of this stuff for years now!!

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #12.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:54 PM EDT
                                                                                                kcjhawk

                                                                                                I think in this week's episode MIB told Richard that Jacob stole his body and his humanity.

                                                                                                  #12.10 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:38 AM EDT
                                                                                                  NCL70506

                                                                                                  I think MIB said the devil took his body and humanity. (He was also saying that Jacob was the devil.) He could have meant this literally, and if he did, I would like to see how that happened. I was not sure if he meant it literally, because it appeared that MIB was using words "hell" and "devil" to get to Richard, since he was such a religious man.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #12.11 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:09 PM EDT
                                                                                                  scrambledeggs

                                                                                                  whoa - could it be possible that Jacob took on MIB's appearance/form?! that the blonde guy's body used to be MIB's??

                                                                                                    #12.12 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                    jograyghost

                                                                                                    John's body is buried in the cemetery on the beach. Flocke has a different sort of form. Apparently it feels real but it isn't

                                                                                                      #12.13 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:22 PM EDT
                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                      blackwidow1

                                                                                                      Glad to finally get a backstory on Richard. Now we know what happened to the statue and why the Blackrock was in the middle of the jungle. So that’s cool. Things are wrapping up. That makes me sad.

                                                                                                      • "We're in Hell," "We all go to Hell" -- why all the talk of Hell?

                                                                                                      Personally, I thought all the talk of hell was way over the top. At times, it seemed like they were smacking us in the face with it and that is so not Lost-style. Its not the first time the island’s been called hell. Remember way back when Locke’s father was brought to the island for Locke to kill? He called it hell also.

                                                                                                      • Why did Dogen's comments about Nemesis echo Nemesis' own comments regarding Jacob?

                                                                                                      Richard was given the instructions on how to “kill the devil”. He’s been on the island for a long time and my guess would be that he considers Smokey “the devil” … so it stands to follow that as a significant member of the Others he would have passed along the info. Sort of like a myth that’s been handed down throughout the generations – think stake through the heart for vampires or silver bullet for werewolves. I’m curious as to why if Richard was the only living person on the island at this point in time – and if everyone else who became members of the Others came after him – why was Richard not the “leader” of the Others? He’s basically been given eternal life by Jacob. Why wouldn’t he become permanent leader of the Others? Just wondering.

                                                                                                      • If Richard was recruited to be a proxy for Jacob, why did he interact personally with candidates?

                                                                                                      Richard was Jacob’s loophole. The disagreement between Jacob and MIB is whether people are corruptible OR whether people will choose the “right way” on their own, without Jacob stepping in. Richard was able to step in where Jacob was not. Jacob could bring people to the island and Jacob could “mark” the players/pawns (and tell them how sorry he was for their lot in life) but Jacob could not otherwise interact personally with candidates once on the island.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      Reply#13 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:36 PM EDT
                                                                                                      BlackRock Steve

                                                                                                      why was Richard not the “leader” of the Others? He’s basically been given eternal life by Jacob. Why wouldn’t he become permanent leader of the Others? Just wondering.

                                                                                                      bw1...your answer is exactly what you stated in the next question...Richard could NOT be the "Leader" but only an "adviser" or senior player since if he was the leader then the players and candidates would NOT be making their own free choice to choose the "right way" on their own...they'd be just following orders!!

                                                                                                      BTW...if you didn't watch the "Enhanced Recon" epi prior to tonight's show...they DID confirm in the annotated comments exactly what you posted and we discussed earlier today on the Recon blog (I posted the transcript of that scene on the blog)...as Locke was sending Sawyer over to Hydra, the comments stated a reminder of the dialogue between NemLocke and Richard as seen in the Incident about doing something about the remaining Ajira passengers. Note that we got no confirmation tonight that Richard was in fact doing that rather than going to the temple and hence his "you wouldn't believe me if I told you" comment to Jack. I reviewed that scene earlier today yet again and noticed that a couple of the bodies are bruised as if battered by Smokey and note the bodies are sort of stacked/piled similar to what MIB/Smokey did with Bram and bodyguard bodies in LA X after he killed them...so, ?? about Richard's role continues.

                                                                                                        #13.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        mbergs

                                                                                                        While clearly Jacob is "good" and MIB is "evil", I have a hard time accepting Jacob as purely benevolent. He did say he brings people to the island to prove a point to MIB. For sport basically. And all those people died, he told Richard, and he didn't look that upset over it. So while Jacob is the better of the two, there are still some things that don't completely mesh with the complete "good guy" image.

                                                                                                          Reply#14 - Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:42 PM EDT
                                                                                                          Bordsox-999133

                                                                                                          I would not necessarily call him good...more neutral. He just believes that humans are not innately evil. As seen by his beatdown he can be pretty mean too. I was wondering why, if he has such faith in humankind, why Richard seems to be the first one he has actually talked to?

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #14.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:37 AM EDT
                                                                                                          Syntactic Tree

                                                                                                          I think that's the point. It's not an either/or scenario here. I don't think Jacob wants to show we're completely inherently good, he just wants to prove weren't not all completely inherently bad, as Nemesis would have us believe.

                                                                                                          We can go through all the characters and point out the gray areas. In this very episode, we saw that Richard was a God-fearing Catholic devoted to his wife, but at the end of the day - while unintentionally, yes - he's responsible for killing a man.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #14.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                          Inchiki

                                                                                                          Yep, Jacob is much more like Old Testament--a vengeful, wrathful Lord. Ask one of your more faithful followers for a first-born, perhaps. Feeling peturbed by the nature of mankind, send a flood and start over. It seems that we poor mortals will always ask, why is there suffering and evil if there's a all-powerful deity?

                                                                                                            #14.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                            Anjillina

                                                                                                            There is suffering and evil because God gives us free will. And humans continually screw up. And Richard killing a man is not evil and has nothing to do with his goodness/badness. It was an accident. Accidents do happen and don't affect a person's inherent goodness. However, I will state that it was once again caused by free will. He could have left - he could have gone elsewhere for help. There were other avenues. He chose to struggle with the man - his free will choice.

                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                            #14.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:51 AM EDT
                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                            OldBlue

                                                                                                            Maybe I glanced away & missed a subtitle tonight, but I'm wondering if Steve is off a bit with his dates in the summary. The historical references we've received don't make any sense for the 1800's -- lacking further evidence, I would say with great confidence tonight's story took place prior to 1750, and possibly as far back as the 1500's.

                                                                                                            I'm basing this on 1) Spanish peasants speaking of traveling to the "New World" - Spain's period of influence in the Americas had ended completely by 1800, and most likely any popular references even in the years leading up to this time would be to "America". Immigrants wouldn't be widely attracted during the Spanish Empire's decline, but would have their greatest attraction during the height of Spanish colonization (1550-1700). 2) Indentured servitude, while extremely common in the 17th & early 18th centuries, had greatly diminished by the time of the American Revolution. It is particularly meaningful that a British subject - Mr Whitfield - is purchasing indentures in Spain, indicating the decline of Spanish influence and dominance of Britain, most likely around 1700 +/- 20 years. 3) the styles of clothing shown appeared pre-Revolutionary -- rough cloth & simple cuts.

                                                                                                            In any case, I think we have an indication of what is meant by being on the island "a very long time". Steve -- if you can push your dates in the summary back about another 200 years or so, I think you'll be much closer to the mark.

                                                                                                              #15 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:05 AM EDT
                                                                                                              Syntactic Tree

                                                                                                              I didn't read the whole review, as I always watch the show, but the only specific date I see in the article - and the only date I remember from this episode - is 1867, and that's just what the subtitles on the episode said.

                                                                                                              So if there are any anachronisms, blame the researchers from the production crew and ABC.

                                                                                                              But for what it's worth... I think saying influence ended "completely by 1800" as a hard and fast benchmark is too strong a claim, as the colonies declared independence between 1810 and 1825.

                                                                                                                #15.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                ranturn

                                                                                                                The title said Tenerife - Canary Islands 1867

                                                                                                                Interesting side note on Tenerife - It was the site of an airport disaster in 1977 that involved two Boeing 747 passenger planes. The crash was one of the deadliest accidents in aviation history.

                                                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                                                #15.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                parent-43973

                                                                                                                And Richard was not an indentured servant; he was a purchased slave. Indentured servants traveled of their own free will. They owed a lot of money for the privilege, and in all practicality became like slaves because they could not pay it back, but the initiation of their travels was nothing like what befell Richard.

                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                #15.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:32 AM EDT
                                                                                                                say what??

                                                                                                                In "The Constant" (4:5) Widmore successfully bid on the Black Rock first mate's journal. The auctioneer explained the Black Rock's history: The Black Rock set sail from Portsmith England on March 22, 1845 on a trading mission to the kingdom of Siam, when she was tragically lost at sea. The only known artifact of this journey is the journal of the ship's first mate, which was discovered among the artifacts of pirates on the Ile Sante-Marie off the coast of Madagascar seven years later. This contradicts the date of 1867 given in last night's episode. Why the discrepancy? Is that why Widmore was so interested in getting the journal?

                                                                                                                If the ship smashed into the statue with enough force to destroy the statue, why wasn't the ship also destroyed or at least badly damaged? The ship's remains in the jungle look relatively intact - including the masts and the rigging - and the things inside are a little too "tidy." It doesn't make sense.

                                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                                #15.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:35 AM EDT
                                                                                                                sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                I thought it said 1767

                                                                                                                  #15.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:23 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  Twinkle391

                                                                                                                  In the season's opening scene, Jacob and MIB are on the beach and we see a ship on the horizon. I assumed it was the Black Rock.

                                                                                                                  MIB asks (?) Jacob if he brought the ship and I believe Jacob confirmed he did.

                                                                                                                  The weather was fine then.

                                                                                                                  Good point SayWhat about the ship's condition. There is no way the ship would have ended up in the middle of the island, much less being capable of destroying a statue made of cement.

                                                                                                                  Are we supposed to believe this really happened? What about the discrepancies in the time frame. Are the Canary Islands close to Australia? Were they headed to Australia or America?

                                                                                                                  I hope the discrepancies aren't production errors. Pretty sloppy work given what we are used to, if that's the case.

                                                                                                                    #15.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:31 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                    But are we sure the ship they saw was the Black Rock? It would stand to reason that the Black Rock isn't the only ship that's come to the island.

                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                    #15.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:43 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    Twinkle391

                                                                                                                    Sweetpeas - that was my assumption when I saw that episode. Now, after last night's, not so much. Maybe it was just a red herring. Or maybe it was something else. Maybe it was a #%$&% mistake!

                                                                                                                    I said I'd be doing this all #%$&% day! Sorry, Biden, but you started it.

                                                                                                                      #15.8 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:49 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      pinkcap

                                                                                                                      I noticed that discrepancy between the dates too. I think that the ship we saw in 1845 was the Black Rock. If it came when the weather was nice, then it would have been anchored in the water and the men from the boats would have used rowboats to make it to shore. For all we know, it could have been used by Jacob the way the sub was used by the others, to bring people to the island. I think the MIB caused the storm to destroy the Black Rock and prevent Jacob from bringing people to the island. He has to kill Jacob and his replacement to get off the island. He has been trying to get rid of all the replacements so that when he kills Jacob, he can get off. When Ben killed Jacob, he thought that he was free, because the candidates were gone. He assumed he got rid of them, but then Jacob said they were coming.

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      #15.9 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:04 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      Suzy Q 184

                                                                                                                      I'm glad I'm not the only who noticed the huge difference in weather conditions between the ship that was offshore on that sunny, calm day when we first saw Jacob and Nemesis, and the massive storm that brought the Black Rock onto the island. I had assumed that they were the same ship, as it sounds like others had as well. Do we have any definitive proof that they are, in fact, two different ships?

                                                                                                                        #15.10 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:47 AM EDT
                                                                                                                        kcjhawk

                                                                                                                        Pinkcap: I like the idea that the Black Rock was the island's more primitive "sub." That would definitely make sense--if it made several trips. It would explain why all the people on this trip except Richard were killed, MIB wanting the trips to stop. Also, the people from the ship are all dead, Jacob tells Richard--but maybe only the ones from this trip. If there have been previous trips, then that could explain the origin of some of the "Others."

                                                                                                                        MIB/Smokey did not kill Richard because he was praying when Smokey approached and MIB thought that since Richard was a good person, he could use him to kill Jacob and finally get off the island. What do you think?

                                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                                        #15.11 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:08 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        lostinventura

                                                                                                                        I don't think there's any discrepancy with the time Black Rock left England. For whatever reasons it traveled for years, passingthrough teh Canary Islands for slaves (I assume) and then unfortunately ran into Jacob's alleged exercise in free will.

                                                                                                                        Although not necessarily part of this thread, I'm starting to see problems with Jacob's concept of "free will." in fact at this point, I'd argue he's totally obliterated free will by forcing people come to the island. he keeps claiming he can't interfere and tell them to be good. oh but wait, in many ways isn't that exactly what he did with kate? and i'm a little confused on how the idea of free will can have a "loop hole?" i.e. Richard. i don't believe that we are all inherently evil and only learn to be good, so I can appreciate anyone testing MIB's theory about that. However, if I'm Jacob, I don't know why i would scarifice the lives of hundreds or thousands of people to "save" MIB. as it appears to me that MIB used his free will to believe everyone is evil.

                                                                                                                          #15.12 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          pinkcap

                                                                                                                          MIB/Smokey did not kill Richard because he was praying when Smokey approached and MIB thought that since Richard was a good person, he could use him to kill Jacob and finally get off the island. What do you think?

                                                                                                                          kcjhawk - I think you're right. We saw those little flashes of light. I'm sure that's the method he uses to read a person's soul.

                                                                                                                            #15.13 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            OnlyChild

                                                                                                                            Regarding the dates, I too was surprised by the date 1867. I thought slavery was abolished by Denmark and England, all of Europe and even the USA by about that time. So the Black Rock may have been operating outside the law. Why did Richard have to speak English?

                                                                                                                            The priest was interesting. I assume he was keeping an eye out for prospects for Whitfield and getting a payment for his efforts. Then he refused to give Richard absolution and told him he was going to hell in the morning so Richard would do anything to stay alive. Another good, well acted short term character. There have been so many of them in this show.

                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                            #15.14 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:59 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            FortifiedHooligan

                                                                                                                            Although not necessarily part of this thread, I'm starting to see problems with Jacob's concept of "free will." in fact at this point, I'd argue he's totally obliterated free will by forcing people come to the island. he keeps claiming he can't interfere and tell them to be good. oh but wait, in many ways isn't that exactly what he did with kate?

                                                                                                                            I'm thinking he intervened in the lives of people who he felt would have the best chance at making the right choice through free will. I can see why you would say making them end up on the island negates the whole free will concept, but I think that was the little push to get them to the island, once there it was hands off. Makes me think of what Jacob said to Hurley when he talked about sometimes letting people gaze off into the sea and sometimes getting in a cab with someone.

                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                            #15.15 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:27 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                                                                                            Re: 1867 vs. 1845, and "which ship is which" - again, more discrepancies in the story and more people who "watch" the show either remembering facts wrong or refusing to believe them - "it always ends the same" indeed!

                                                                                                                              #15.16 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:40 PM EDT
                                                                                                                              OnlyChild

                                                                                                                              He has been trying to get rid of all the replacements so that when he kills Jacob, he can get off. When Ben killed Jacob, he thought that he was free, because the candidates were gone. He assumed he got rid of them, but then Jacob said they were coming.

                                                                                                                              And that's why it was so important for everybody to go back to the island? it was Christian who sent Locke to convince everyone and Widmore who helped him.

                                                                                                                                #15.17 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:58 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                NCL70506

                                                                                                                                Good grief! I read one post and think it makes sense. I read another post with a different point of view and I think that makes sense too. Ack! My head hurts, but I can't stop reading all of this!

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #15.18 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                OnlyChild

                                                                                                                                I believe I know why 1867 date seems so "off" to me. I have always thought of the island as ancient - the statues and hieroglyphics, ageless Richard - but 1867 is really modern time. Photography is in use, steamships cross the oceans (I think or pretty soon after that), there are already some versions of early automobiles. I wanted the ship to be older.

                                                                                                                                I think that Ricardo's "new world" was a reference to a new life, hope, and the priest saw the irony of that. ("I'll send you to a new world" he was probably thinking.) I agree with someone who point out (in posts to come) that Richard and the others were in chains because they were prisoners, not because they were slaves. We assumed the Black Rock was a slave ship because we saw the shackles in there. Perhaps they were going to a penal colony where they would need English or to some illegal operations run by English people.

                                                                                                                                Now I realize that this should really be posted at the end of last comments, not here, but don't know how to change it so ....

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #15.19 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:20 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                lostinventura

                                                                                                                                Loved this episode. I don't think we needed sooooooo much backstory. I didn't need so may minutes of watching Ricardo tried to get a nail out of the wood, to use to slowly punch aay at he wood only to lose it. they could ahve shown the scenes of veryone getting killed, shown two or three days later and in walks Isabella, etc. Bu other than that, great episode and I htink a good payoff for most Lost viewers.

                                                                                                                                No onto to challenging Steve's proclamation that us "non-believers in the MIB is evil incarnate" just were proven wrong. I don't know if this was intentional direction but when Jacob was talking to ricardo he seemed so wrong. almost mischievious. it was so deliberate and strange. and everything Jacob said became suspect to me the minute he said he's spending his time bringing poeple to the island to prove MIB wrong and the result is: they all die. if he didn't bring anyone to the island then hello? no one to serve as MIB's vehicle for the loophole. i believe the island is a cork, i just wouldn't be so quick to judge who it is for. um, case in point, Jacob's ninja skills make absolutely no sense.

                                                                                                                                and what the hell was MIB talking about re: Jacob talking his body, his humanity?

                                                                                                                                On another note, great storytelling with Isabella/Ricardo. loved it. and big surprise that Richard isn't from more of an ancient time.

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                Reply#16 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:45 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                Tommy Boy

                                                                                                                                I agree 100% on this - it took WAY too much time with Richard still on the ship.

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #16.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:18 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                kcjhawk

                                                                                                                                Definitely too much @#$%^&* (joining in our new theme) time on Richard and his pathetic wranglings. I kept saying: "turn around, dude, use your legs," but no, he just kept looking longingly at the nail after the pig knocked it away. I hope Jacob (the Wizard of Oz) gave him smarts when he touched him or how great an advisor would he be?

                                                                                                                                Well lostinv, my only concern with your idea is, if Jacob is supposed to be the one stopped by the "cork" why can he seemingly leave the island with ease?

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #16.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:14 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                lostinventura

                                                                                                                                kcjhawk, well i'm still confused about how Jack saw Christian off-island if not for MIB's ability to inhabit dead people off island. or are we still unsure that Jacob wasn't "playing" Christian? I'm not sure I believe the cork is for Jacob either. i think there is still a third party in all of this. but the main point to my comment above was that I just don't buy Jacob's schtick. or if i'm suppose to buy it, someone better tell the director not to have him give creep glances to richard whilst drinking vino.

                                                                                                                                and i really want to know what MIB meant about Jacob taking his body and humanity. i think that was actually a really big @#$%^&* deal.

                                                                                                                                  #16.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                  Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute

                                                                                                                                  I wasn't aware of this til just now, but Jacob AKA Mark Pellegrino is also appearing on the show Supernatural as of all people....Lucifer? Interesting at all?

                                                                                                                                    #16.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:50 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                    Jekazu

                                                                                                                                    I think it is. When we first saw Lucifer on Supernatural I yelled out loud "that's Jacob!" and my hubby, who does not watch LOST and thinks it's stupid (is this grounds for a divorce?)was like "who?". LOL!

                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                    #16.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                    NCL70506

                                                                                                                                    lostinventura - MIB actually said the devil took his body and his humanity. (If that makes a difference to you.) Now, in this episode, MIB was referring to Jacob as the devil, but I think that was because of Richard's religious beliefs. So the way I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) MIB was literallly talking about the devil or (2) he was talking about Jacob.

                                                                                                                                    I wondered what MIB meant by this also; see my post 10.4 above. From the bits and pieces the producers/writers have given us about MIB, we know he feels trapped, he hates Jacob enough to want him dead, and he wants to go home. Whether it was the devil, Jacob, or the Easter Bunny that "took his body and humanity", it seems that MIB blames Jacob 100% for that happening and for keeping him stuck on the Island. Episode 15 is rumored to be a Jacob/MIB centered and mythology centered episode, so hopefully we will get some answers then as to how all this started.

                                                                                                                                      #16.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                      kcjhawk

                                                                                                                                      Jekazu: Lost is stupid, but he watches Supernatural? Wasn't it just last week when a chubby middle aged "cupid" was causing a ruckus? That's a show only MENSA members can enjoy!

                                                                                                                                        #16.7 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:45 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                        lostinventura

                                                                                                                                        thanks NCL70506. strangely i didn't even care about the humanity part,. but the body reference really intrigued me. if we discover MIB's original form mirrors Jacob's current form, I may just...well i don't know. either i'd be annoyed or really intrigued.

                                                                                                                                        jezaku and kcjhawk, i actually started watching supernatural recently b/c I think it's pretty cool to see how these two shows are so much alike. however, if i see a Cherubic Cupid prancing through the jungle after Kate then I know Lost has truly Jumped the Shark.

                                                                                                                                          #16.8 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:53 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                          Jekazu

                                                                                                                                          Jekazu: Lost is stupid, but he watches Supernatural? Wasn't it just last week when a chubby middle aged "cupid" was causing a ruckus? That's a show only MENSA members can enjoy!

                                                                                                                                          In his defense he started watching LOST when it first started and then missed a year while he was deployed and then he was a Drill Sgt for 3 years, so he missed just about 3 seasons worth of episodes. He tried to watch it with me last season, but by then he LOST interest in the show. I tried to get him to netflix the past seasons, but he didn't want to. As for Supernatural, it is getting very odd this season. We really want to see how the whole Lucifer/Michael thing will play out though. Plus, Dean is so very easy on the eyes.

                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                          #16.9 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                          Jekazu

                                                                                                                                          Hey, did anyone notice the guy who plays the MIB on LOST was the Horseman War in an espisode of Supernatural? I knew he looked familiar.

                                                                                                                                            #16.10 - Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                                                            Merlin-834235

                                                                                                                                            I voted "Fantastic"... Only because "Totally Awesome Dude" wasn't available... Somehow, I just KNEW that Hurley would play a pivotal part in "The End Game" I'm sure the producers sought out a person/character that would be fluent enough in Spanish, if for no other reason than to do that closing scene with Richard! Tonight's episode was just as Hurley would have described it... "Totally Awesome, Dude!" For those who have been complaining about 'no answers'... I'd say we got a big dose of them tonight! How Richard got to the island and why... how The Black Rock got to the island... How the statue got cut down to just a foot... How Richard became immortal and why... Who MIB/SMOKEY/NEMESIS/FLOCKE really is and why he is on the island... What the real purpose of the island really is and why Jacob is there... (Perhaps sometime in the future there will be a revelation of WHO gave him that task, and why it was given to Jacob.

                                                                                                                                            While some may say there wasn't a whole lot of info passed on tonight, I would tend to disagree. Our presence here on this blog, with all the intelligent people contributing ideas, thoughts and theories, references to information and back story relating to some of the story's obscure references... with all that going for us, I think we have a much better idea about what is going on at any given point in the story than any casual viewer that doesn't have LitV and our contributions to flesh out the story in their minds. I think our discussions allow us to understand the story much better, so that what is being slowly revealed doesn't feel like new info to us... it is just confirmation of what we already understand.

                                                                                                                                            -=M=-
                                                                                                                                            ‹(•¿•)›

                                                                                                                                            • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                            Reply#17 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:46 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                            pinkcap

                                                                                                                                            I think we have a much better idea about what is going on at any given point in the story than any casual viewer that doesn't have LitV and our contributions to flesh out the story in their minds. I think our discussions allow us to understand the story much better, so that what is being slowly revealed doesn't feel like new info to us... it is just confirmation of what we already understand.

                                                                                                                                            Merlin, you have stated it so well. I thought the episode was great. It is not new information to us, but it is always good to have the confirmation because no matter how many times we discuss it, it is only a theory. It's like a list for Christmas. You will get some things you asked for and some things you didn't ask for. I'm surprised when I open the presents that are not on my list, but I'm also surprised when I receive something that is on my list because I have no idea if I will get it until I open it.

                                                                                                                                            • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                            #17.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:22 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                                                            Deborah SG

                                                                                                                                            Loved that there was an important Hanso so many generations back. Also, the relevancy of his first name.

                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                            Reply#18 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:53 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                            The.Good.Foot

                                                                                                                                            I must have missed the Hanso thing. can someone enlighten me?? Sorry...

                                                                                                                                              #18.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:02 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                              Deborah SG

                                                                                                                                              The slave-owner was introduced as Magnus Hanso. A relative of the 20th century Hanso?

                                                                                                                                                #18.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:34 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                                                When they said Magnus Hanso I laughed because, with all the Star Wars references, I immediately thought of Hans Solo.

                                                                                                                                                  #18.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:27 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  belle42

                                                                                                                                                  Yeah I loved the TLE nod too. Too bad Hanso died in the crash and was never shown on screen!

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  #18.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:44 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  pinkcap

                                                                                                                                                  Magnus Hanso was mentioned when Charles Widmore bid on his journal in the episode The Coanstant. He is related to Alvar Hanso who funded the Dharma Initiative. ABC had extra information about Hanso on its website years ago. I'm not sure if they still do, but Lostpedia is an excellent source for this type of information if you would like to know more.

                                                                                                                                                    #18.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:30 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                                                                    The.Good.Foot

                                                                                                                                                    My observation... When MIB and Jacob first saw the ship, (the black rock) it was day light, calm seas, while Jacob was eating a fish taco and MIB was staring out at the sea. Watching this episode, the seas are at like 30 foot swells and next thing you know, it's starting to look like "THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW" with some tsunami wave crashing the boat into the statue.

                                                                                                                                                    It just didn't play out well with me. Didn't get it.

                                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                    Reply#19 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:01 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                    parent-43973

                                                                                                                                                    How does a wooden ship smash a huge stone statue so thoroughly yet remain relatively intact after flying through the air for miles and then crashing into the jungle?

                                                                                                                                                      #19.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                      say what??

                                                                                                                                                      I agree, TGF. That hellacious storm blew up out of nowhere, if the ship we saw in "The Incident" was indeed the Black Rock. The two stories we know about the ship don't mesh.

                                                                                                                                                        #19.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:52 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                        sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                                                        I posted this above but how do we know the ship they saw while sitting on the beach was the Black Rock? I don't believe it was ever confirmed that is was the BR, we've just assumed it was. We know the BR isn't the only boat to land on the island (Desmond). Could have been a different ship/different time.

                                                                                                                                                          #19.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:46 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          Susanaree

                                                                                                                                                          Remember that Oceanic 815 also ended up on the island in better condition than you might expect - can we chalk these landings up to mysterious island properties?

                                                                                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                          #19.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:51 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                                                          parent-43973

                                                                                                                                                          I am becoming very disappointed in the way this is all turning out. From the very beginning Lost was full of mystery, but the mystery was science-based: electro-magnatism, quantum time travel (that could be studied and experimented with by a physicist), the hokey, over the top Lamppost station with all the charts and coordinates, the jamming device of the Looking Glass that could be turned off, Rouseau's transmission, etc. etc. Everything, as near as possible, tended towards "scientific" explanations (regardless how far fetched). This season, that is all out the window, and it is all metaphysical. If we are dealing with supernatural beings, why do they need as mundane a device as the Looking Glass to hide the Island? And why can it be turned off? If the Island is the Cork of Hell, why can it be "found" by mathematical analysis? Why would it have an "escape hatch" to Tunisia? And on and on.

                                                                                                                                                          The two ethos just don't synch up. It's like a couple of episodes back when SmokeyLocke released Ben from his shackle just by "magic". Up to that point, everything Smokey did was physical; his destruction of things and people was very violent. But if he had magic powers, why go through all that trouble? Why would the sonic towers stop him (just "magic" them away)? It seems as though the writers are scrambling to tie things together, but there is too much inthe first five seasons so they are just glossing over everything so there can be resolution.

                                                                                                                                                          We can suspend disbelief to be drawn into a world which is not "real", and we do all the time, especially in science fiction. But that "new reality" has to hang together. Up until this season Lost did. Now, there has been a tremendous shift which renders the first five seasons rather irrelevant. Either ethos would have been entertaining in its own right (Season Six would have made an entertaining standalone show), but forcing them together in this manner seems very false.

                                                                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                          Reply#20 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:51 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          Anjillina

                                                                                                                                                          My explanation - those scientists started dicking around with the Island and that's what allowed Nemesis to get the foothold he needed to kill Jacob. : ) (spirituality rules! "science" drools!)

                                                                                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                          #20.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:57 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          Inchiki

                                                                                                                                                          Parent,

                                                                                                                                                          The story's emphasis on spirituality may also parallel Jack's transition from Science to Faith. The conflict between Science and Faith has come from a misunderstanding of Science. Science has been characterized as "deterministic"; knowing enough variables, you can predict the outcome. If Jacob (free will) is to rally, then science must recede. On the other hand, there may be some point of balance/convergence between science and faith in the final episodes.

                                                                                                                                                          But I, too, would like the science to remain an integral part of the story. From Alias to Star Trek, J.J. Abrams has hopefully made science interesting to the general public.

                                                                                                                                                            #20.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            parent-43973

                                                                                                                                                            That is sort of my point. Obviously, all of Lost has been about the tension between faith and science. My complaint is that the science was well done (fictional, but well done) up to now, even with unexplained and non-science things happening, yet now the non-science is so dominant that the earlier stuff becomes irrelevant (again, I turn to the Looking Glass: that was a dominant theme for all of Season 3, the central focus of the show, and the disabling of its jamming device directly led to their rescue. Now it turns out that none of that was necessary because Jacob could just magic people in and out however and whenever he wants, etc. etc.)

                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                            #20.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:19 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Sabastian Palpatine

                                                                                                                                                            parent,

                                                                                                                                                            I've always been a believer that religion and science could be reconciled depending on your individual perspective and if you were able to see far enough into the future. I also believe that the creators of Lost are of the same thinking. I've been re-watching season 1 lately and Jack started off as a man of science while Locke was a man of faith. Here we are in season 6 and Jack is now the man of faith.

                                                                                                                                                            As a youth Locke excelled at science and because he thought that being scary good at science would only get him stuffed into lockers and prevent him from being the prom king he purposely avoided pursuing his gift of understanding and being involved in scientific activities.

                                                                                                                                                            I don't think that we're done with the science side of things. The multiple universe angle still needs to be addressed. There has to be a sci-fi reason why the island is intact and underwater.

                                                                                                                                                            As far as Jacob being able to "magic people in and out however he wants" I've been of the opinion that the island's electro-magnetism and Jacob attracting vessels to the island are somehow related.

                                                                                                                                                            Jacob gets out into the real world and gets his hands dirty, giving a push here and there. It's not like he folds his arms, blinks his eyes or twitches his nose and then (wallah!) a ship lands on the beach.

                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                            #20.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            LightOwl8

                                                                                                                                                            Hi parent,

                                                                                                                                                            In post #20 you asked:

                                                                                                                                                            "Up to that point, everything Smokey did was physical; his destruction of things and people was very violent. But if he had magic powers, why go through all that trouble?"

                                                                                                                                                            Answer: To make it more believable. This week's episode gives an example of this. Let's say that MIB can remove shackles like Ben's, seemingly by magic. But he wants to convince Ricardo that he's real and 'a friend', so he produces a set of keys, explains that he found them on an officer and hopes they will work, and then unlocks Ricardo's shackles. If he had walked in and unlocked them by snapping his fingers, Ricardo would have flipped out and not trusted him. For all we know, MIB conjured those keys out of thin air, but by using them he gave himself more credibility.

                                                                                                                                                            Besides, unexplainable "magic" abilities can still have physical limitations...

                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                            #20.5 - Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                                                                            acLOST

                                                                                                                                                            I've never posted but I've been reading this the next day after Lost for the past 2 years. I have a question. Didn't Richard tell Ben to have the DHARMA folks all gassed? If he's good why??? Were the Dharma all evil?? I'm totally on Team Jacob is good but I'm confused on that? I know its way back.

                                                                                                                                                            A

                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                            Reply#21 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Twinkle391

                                                                                                                                                            Yes he did. And it was a long time coming, because he mentioned it to Ben when Ben was very young. Good question.

                                                                                                                                                            I think you just gave a very good example of how Jacob can't be "good". Someone mentioned last week that maybe Jacob/MIB was just two sides of the same coin.

                                                                                                                                                            But I still think it's free will versus fate, and Jacob and MIB are playing a game to see who's right.

                                                                                                                                                              #21.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:39 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              belle42

                                                                                                                                                              My best guess is that none of them were candidates and they were 'purging' the island for a new group of recruits.

                                                                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                              #21.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:46 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              Twinkle391

                                                                                                                                                              Except for Ben. He was the only one saved. Jacob's orders?

                                                                                                                                                              Good guess.

                                                                                                                                                                #21.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:50 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                Anjillina

                                                                                                                                                                acLOST - that's my ONLY glitch with my "Jacob is all good" belief as well. I still hold the idea for myself that either Richard went rogue or possibly Jacob let Nemesis influence Ben and allowed him to follow through with all the planning fully believing that Ben would stop at the last minute and choose "good" instead of "evil" as Jacob always supposedly believed he had the potential to do. Therefore proving himself a worthy candidate. But he didn't. Therefore Jacob allowing man's free will again - not directing the murder of a group of people. Because I'm sure MIB didn't leave Ben alone all those years - I just don't think we've been shown his interactions with Ben. For all we know he appeared to Ben as his mother and told him his Dad is evil, everyone at DHARMA hates him and that she wants him to kill everyone and start over.

                                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                #21.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:01 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                kcjhawk

                                                                                                                                                                While Jacob says that MIB is the evil that must be contained, it does not automatically mean that Jacob is "good incarnate." All the scientists out there aching to be rid of the religious theme should know that one thing does not = the other. Philosophers, too.

                                                                                                                                                                But anyway, how do we know Jacob is not being punished, too? After all he is the one that has to protect the island and keep the cork in. He may not be all good, but I think he is the protagonist that we are supposed to hope wins. And it may not have been a game to him, bringing people to the island. He would probably like to find a replacement and have some peace, too.

                                                                                                                                                                  #21.5 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:27 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  T Bourlon

                                                                                                                                                                  Well, Jacob brought a shipful of people to the Island and did NOTHING to warn them about Smokey. It was almost like, "here 'ya go, Smokey, lunchtime!" But what I remember about Richard and Little Ben is Ben saying he wanted to go with Richard, and Richard saying he could, but he had to be patient and wait. I don't know if at that time the "Others" were planning to gas the Dharmaites or not. Someone hypothesized above that MIB might have tricked Ben into thinking Jacob wanted the Dharmites gassed, and Ben went along with it because of his anger and resentment. But that may be one of those questions that doesn't get answered.

                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                  #21.6 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  NCL70506

                                                                                                                                                                  In 1973, a Truce was made between Horace Goodspeed (representing the Dharma Initiative) and Richard Alpert (representing the indigenous Island inhabitants). The Truce included things that the Dharma Initiative (DI) could do and could not do, such as where they could not go on the Island and how long they could stay on the Island. Some DI members violated parts of the Truce over the years, which possibly/likely led to the decision to kill the DI members. This is known as The Purge. By this time, Ben had already defected to the Others. On the day of The Purge, Ben, Richard, and several Others were at the DI village holding their gas masks, looking at the DI people who died from the release of the gas.

                                                                                                                                                                  Ben took responsibility for The Purge a couple of times, saying: (1) “The Dharma Initiative. They came here seeking harmony, but they couldn't even coexist with the Island's original inhabitants. And when it became clear that one side had to go, one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do.” and (2) “Not so long ago, I made a decision that took the lives of over forty people in a single day.” Another time, Ben stated that The Purge wasn't his decision because he answered to someone else.

                                                                                                                                                                  So, you could look at the killing of the DI people as Ben’s decision, Richard’s decision, their decision together, Jacob’s decision, or MIB’s decision. Jacob and MIB were not really shown during the earlier seasons, so we don’t know for sure if Richard or Ben consulted with Jacob or MIB posing as Jacob on this decision. Unfortunately for the DI people, it appears they overstayed their welcome.

                                                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                  #21.7 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                                                  7sezu

                                                                                                                                                                  I'm thinking angels & demons, Jacobs Ladder - the island is the bridge between Heaven and Hell - temples and redemption, offering up one's self freely- choosing the path of righteousness or path of destruction. Jacob appears out of nowhere when people are in their greatest moment of need, like one would expect from a guardian angel. He was favored by god. He is the keeper of the gate to heaven. In the bible Jacob always appeared in the company of Angels. Ehh but what do I know – terrific writing and great thinking entertainment.

                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                  Reply#22 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  mbfromtn

                                                                                                                                                                  I agree with parent-43973 that there is no way the time period for the flashback is the 1800's.  It's at least the 1600's or very early 1700's. 

                                                                                                                                                                  So great to finally know more about Richard's past.  No wonder the poor dude lost it when he found out Jacob was dead.

                                                                                                                                                                    Reply#23 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:05 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                                                                    Another great episode. Loved finally learning about Richard and why he was immortal.

                                                                                                                                                                    I laughed at the end when MIB smashed the bottle of wine. To me, it spoke that he was going to find or has now found an alternative way off the island other than popping the cork.. Instead of popping the cork he smashed the bottle from below. Since nothing about this show is accidental, I felt that was a forshadowing of things to come.

                                                                                                                                                                    Cheers:

                                                                                                                                                                    Finding out about Richard. I really enjoyed his backstory, especially his reasoning for wanting to live forever.

                                                                                                                                                                    Seeing the origional MIB and more interaction between him and Jacob.

                                                                                                                                                                    "I see the devil!" says the slave on the Black Rock when he sees the statue. Funny!

                                                                                                                                                                    Hurley!

                                                                                                                                                                    Jeers:

                                                                                                                                                                    Subtitles. My eyes hurt!

                                                                                                                                                                    Did anyone other than me want to hurl while watching the pig chomping on the bodies. Yuck. Reminded me of the movie Hannibal when they feed the guy to the pigs. Ewww.

                                                                                                                                                                    Only 7 episodes left. NOOOOO!

                                                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                    Reply#24 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:11 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    say what??

                                                                                                                                                                    Did anyone other than me want to hurl while watching the pig chomping on the bodies. Yuck. Reminded me of the movie Hannibal when they feed the guy to the pigs. Ewww.

                                                                                                                                                                    Later, before MIB sent him to the statue, Richard was eating roast pig. M-mm, yummy - corpse fed pig roasting on an open fire. This mirrors when NemLocke went to Richard's beach camp carrying a dead boar and told Richard "I brought you dinner."

                                                                                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                    #24.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:40 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    sweetpeas2ds

                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, say what, Richard enjoying the corpse fed pig tested my gag reflexes even further. I had completely forgotten about NemLocke bringing the pig to Richard's beach camp.

                                                                                                                                                                    Also, forgot to add my favorite Cheer of all: "Nice to see you out of those chains"!

                                                                                                                                                                      #24.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:51 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      mearth1961

                                                                                                                                                                      when MIB smashed the bottle of wine. To me, it spoke that he was going to find or has now found an alternative way off the island other than popping the cork.. Instead of popping the cork he smashed the bottle from below. Since nothing about this show is accidental, I felt that was a forshadowing of things to come.

                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps this is exactly why Richard had Ben purge the DI...because Jacob knew that MiB would try to use their science to destroy the Island thus eliminating the barrier?

                                                                                                                                                                        #24.3 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:24 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                        JohnBoy813

                                                                                                                                                                        perhaps the smashing of the wine container is symbolic of the sceen in LA X where we saw the island at the bottom of the ocean. Maybe NEM will sink the island in order to get off or to grant Sawyers wish of getting off the island. If it is well below the surface of the ocean, he is technically 'off the island'.

                                                                                                                                                                          #24.4 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:58 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                                                                          DaSarge

                                                                                                                                                                          Another thought about Smokey/Nemesis/FauxLocke  If you recall, Nemesis/MiB was killed last season or season before, why did it take so long for Nemisis/MiB to get into Locke, was he waiting for Locke to return to the Island, why couldn't Smokey/Nemesis take another 'dead' person that already existed on the island.  Is there something special with dead Locke?   --  I know tons of questions and answers are being spoon fed to us from the producers. 

                                                                                                                                                                          Another note, yesterday's episode told a LOT about Richard/Ricardos now we have a full understanding on how he got there and why he never ages.

                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                          Just my $.02

                                                                                                                                                                            Reply#25 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:18 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            Shaun Guidolin

                                                                                                                                                                            maybe he needs to be a dead "candidate"

                                                                                                                                                                              #25.1 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:16 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              T Bourlon

                                                                                                                                                                              I think he took over Locke's body to fool Ben and Richard, since Locke was supposed to be the "leader."

                                                                                                                                                                                #25.2 - Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:18 PM EDT
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